MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters 
Wednesday, April 23, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 54.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

The movement to destroy public schools

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon May 20, 2013 5:39 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:The advent of values-neutral education as well as the advent of "government-as-daddy" via the "Great Society" programs appear to be the obvious culprits.

I might go for the latter explanation, but I remain unconvinced on the former. For the purposes of before/after comparison, it's easy to pinpoint when Great Society programs came into existence - they were put into motion by federal legislation. When did the transition to "values-neutral education" happen?
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon May 20, 2013 5:57 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:The advent of values-neutral education as well as the advent of "government-as-daddy" via the "Great Society" programs appear to be the obvious culprits.

I might go for the latter explanation, but I remain unconvinced on the former. For the purposes of before/after comparison, it's easy to pinpoint when Great Society programs came into existence - they were put into motion by federal legislation. When did the transition to "values-neutral education" happen?

I would argue that it has been a process over the past decades. The the left found great success (and power) with the message that you could do what you wanted and someone else would pick up the pieces. I think we're close to the "end game" now: speech codes, the labeling of conservatives as "racist", "sexist", "homophobic". The attempt to limit and criminalize religion, the balkanization and segmentation of society, skyrocketing food stamp roles, "Obamacare"; the general success in demagoguing and therefore destroying the "rugged individualism" on which this nation was built.

They've done a masterful job in a few short generations.
Ned Flanders
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 13041
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:48 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby WestSideYuppie » Mon May 20, 2013 6:01 pm

The Catholic Church has opposed public education for decades. Jerry Falwell wrote: "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them."

How do they solve the problem? With Republican Privatization of course. That's where you hand huge piles of public money to your cronies, with no oversight, and then declare victory as the promised outcomes are refuted by a growing body of results. Hell, it worked for the rebuilding of infrastructure in Iraq, didn't it? Maybe Blackwater should operate schools.

What could go wrong?

1. Expect the half-life of a voucher school to be a few years, which is the time period needed for the owners and their relatives to bleed it dry through salaries and consulting fees. Expect those schools to get bailed out so that the cycle can start over again. Expect corporate entities to change names often enough so that nobody can track the past performance of school operators and managers.

2. Expect regions of the state, or even the entire state, to have a perpetual shortage of school seats, making it so that some kids won't get into a school at all.

3. Expect parents to spend hours on the road every week, getting their kids to far-flung schools where there happen to be openings.
WestSideYuppie
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:25 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon May 20, 2013 6:02 pm

Ned - OK, but those are broader phenomena that aren't specifically the product of the education system. I'm asking what any of this has to do with education in the sense of K-12 M-F schooling (not in "education" in a broader cultural sense).
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 20, 2013 6:08 pm

Meade wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Why is sex outside of marriage wrong for people of the age of consent? I'd like to hear your reasoning.

It frequently causes the objectification of women, girls, men and boys - and leaves them vulnerable to diseases, unplanned pregnancies, and emotional damage.


You seem to have confused forbidding of sex with some magic power to keep people from thinking about sex.

Wouldn't thorough, age-appropriate sex education be a better solution than just forbidding every unmarried person from having sex? Like people are going to pay attention to unenforceable edicts like that -- all they do is breed contempt. Look at the Catholic Church, for instance. We all know how well that's been working.

Forbidding sex will work about as well as prohibitions on smoking marijuana or being gay and out or drinking alcohol or visiting prostitutes or looking at porn. Like, not at all plus the forbidder becomes a laughingstock.

Plus, nobody's taking you seriously these days, the way you chase the issue of the moment. How come The Meade suddenly got so churchy, only a month or two after he got all interested in guns?

I suggest you next consider thepossibility of legalizing marijuana, which might help you level out.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10967
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby jjoyce » Mon May 20, 2013 6:26 pm

snoqueen wrote:Plus, nobody's taking you seriously these days...


You are. Right here in this thread.

And it's really disappointing.
jjoyce
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:48 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 20, 2013 6:31 pm

Jeez, and I was just about to post something saying I agreed with your understanding of the importance of adequately paying teachers.

Well, I still agree with it, and I was surprised when you posted it. So that's all good.

Now do you propose nobody say anything to Meade? Then why do you keep him on the forum? Perhaps you should make a rule so we know what we're expected to do around here, since it's not exactly intuitive.

Incidentally, I think part of what we want in a public school system is an adequate sex education program. If doing away with that is part of privatization, plenty of data shows the "abstinence only" method results in more teen pregnancy not less. Does the general public really know what they're buying in this "privatization" rush, and is it what people really want? Is this what you want for your own school age kids?
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon May 20, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10967
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby fennel » Mon May 20, 2013 6:33 pm

snoqueen wrote:I suggest you next consider the possibility of legalizing marijuana, which might help you level out.
Only if he really (I mean, really) does the research.
fennel
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3017
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:24 pm
Location: Inside the Green Zone, Madison

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby ArturoBandini » Mon May 20, 2013 6:35 pm

snoqueen wrote:Now do you propose nobody say anything to Meade? Then why do you keep him on the forum? Perhaps you should make a rule so we know what we're expected to do around here, since it's not exactly intuitive.
Why do you need jjoyce's guidance in interacting with Meade?
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby snoqueen » Mon May 20, 2013 6:36 pm

I probably wouldn't follow it anyway. You're right.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10967
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Bert Ernie » Mon May 20, 2013 7:22 pm

Igor wrote:A strong contract ensures retention of both good and bad teachers. If your 6th grade math teacher sucks, high pay will indeed attract more qualified applicants, in 30 years.


No...so no. "Better contract terms" doesn't necessarily equate to "retention of both good and bad." That's a conclusion that you jumped to. Strawman.
Last edited by Bert Ernie on Mon May 20, 2013 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bert Ernie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:59 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby rabble » Mon May 20, 2013 8:13 pm

jjoyce wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Plus, nobody's taking you seriously these days...


You are. Right here in this thread.

And it's really disappointing.

Jesus. Either throw the guy out or stop telling people they shouldn't talk to him. I don't take the pebble in my shoe seriously but I have to recognize its existence to get rid of it.

The problem is, this particular pebble is protected by the guy who's telling me I shouldn't take it seriously.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5774
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon May 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Meade's like the DPF's pack of cigs: very dangerous, but too valuable to ban completely.
Ned Flanders
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 13041
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:48 pm

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby gargantua » Mon May 20, 2013 9:35 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Now do you propose nobody say anything to Meade? Then why do you keep him on the forum? Perhaps you should make a rule so we know what we're expected to do around here, since it's not exactly intuitive.
Why do you need jjoyce's guidance in interacting with Meade?

Maybe it's not intuitive but it's common sense, which I have come to expect from Sno. How many times has it been said: Don't feed the trolls! Don't reward them with your attention. They write irritating, stupid things for the express purpose of evoking a response.

So when you answer them, you reward them. And I think you know it, so if they really annoy you that much you need to exercise the kind of self-control one would expect from a mature, intelligent, 60-something. I am really surprised and sorry I had to write that.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3850
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: The movement to destroy public schools

Postby Igor » Mon May 20, 2013 10:28 pm

Bert Ernie wrote:
Igor wrote:A strong contract ensures retention of both good and bad teachers. If your 6th grade math teacher sucks, high pay will indeed attract more qualified applicants, in 30 years.


No...so no. "Better contract terms" doesn't necessarily equate to "retention of both good and bad." That's a conclusion that you jumped to. Strawman.


As a practical matter, they do equate. There is no law forbidding union contracts from having provisions that would allow people to be terminated for non-disciplinary reasons, of course. But the reality is that many white-collar unions, particularly those with long-term employees, rank job security higher than salary in terms of importance. I can't imagine that any union would give that up. From their point of view, job security *is* "better contract terms".
Igor
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:48 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Local Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


FacebookcommentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar