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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:58 pm

The NRA is pushing hard to stop universal background checks. They used to be for them. Can somebody (I'm looking at you, DMan) please explain how background checks violate the Second Amendment?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:40 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Can somebody (I'm looking at you, DMan) please explain how background checks violate the Second Amendment?


They don't and I'm sure DMan won't agree, but the NRA is fighting for the rights of the gun manufacturers and sellers. This could could put a small dent in sales and even start reducing the number of gun shows. Polling of gun owners shows overwhelming support so to say the NRA backs their members is complete bullshit:

Background checks on all gun buyers are supported by 92 percent of voters, including 91 percent of gun-owning households


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/0 ... 37530.html
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jjoyce » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:55 pm

This American Life is set to broadcast a bold, ambitious two-part series on a Chicago high school which has had eight students killed by gunfire (many more have been shot) in the last year.

This occasion caused me to think about solutions a little bit. The gun crowd would have us believe that this could be solved by having more guns on the street; more "good guys" with guns to stop the "bad guys" with guns.

I agree with that NRA talking point in a very limited context. I think that when it comes to protecting one's home and family in a time of extreme crisis, a well-trained person with a gun is much more reliable and effective than relying on law enforcement. And when it comes to mentally deranged people intent on mass murder, a tragedy would most certainly be averted by a well-trained civilian carrying a gun.

But don't try to tell me that having MORE guns in neighborhoods like this Chicago high school's will cause the rate of crime and murder to decrease. If you really think that the possibility that any man or woman might be concealing a gun is enough to stop beefing kids with easy access to stolen guns from shooting at each other, you're as naive as those who believe the cops are your best bet for protection when someone is breaking into your house in the middle of the night.

In the case of inner-city Chicago's gun violence problem, it's much more of a supply/demand issue. Supply is huge. Guns are plentiful. As a result, they're cheap and easy to come by. How did the supply get so big? Maybe the gun proponents can tell us. To me, it's the guns-as-solution mindset is what's increasing their supply. More guns means more stolen guns which means more criminals carrying guns.

Am I wrong here?

This is why I think the person registered as the owner of a gun be held at least partially responsible if that gun is ever used in a crime. Did someone steal it and then sell it? How could that happen to a responsible gun owner?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi, y'all, I hope you don't mind a forum newbie jumping into this thread. I used to post and lurk the Madison.com forums for a long time before they were shut down.

Here's the only objection to "universal" background checks: the government will use them to create a de facto gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation. A reasonable compromise would be to make keeping records of transfers (after, say 90 days) a crime, and also make the agency responsible for background checks civilly liable for violating the provision.

Don't say the government won't use background checks this way: ATF already makes copies of FFL's 4473 forms (the background check paperwork) when making their inspections. They aren't supposed to under the law, but one can't rely on ATF to follow the law.

Don't say "nobody's talking about confiscation or a total ban." Yes, they are. If you were to compile all the public quotes from all the public officials calling for just those things, you'd have pages and pages.

The polls show the public widely favors universal background checks. I doubt there is similar support for universal registration or confiscation. If we can ensure that the latter does not come from the former, let's get it done. Unlike a ban on personal defense weapons, I think that "universal" background checks might actually make a small difference in crime and homicides. It won't help Chicago, but it might help ... uh... crud.

Can anybody quantify how it might help? Well, the Virginia Tech shooter would have been barred since Virginia revamped their mental health reporting. I don't know any other real-world examples. Maybe the Tucson guy? But it can't be a bad thing, provided we can bar the back-door registration thing.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:38 pm

Chicago's problem is not about guns, it's about how they handle crime. If you shoot and wound somebody in Chicago, you have a less than 1 in 10 chance of even getting charged with a crime, let alone convicted or sentenced.
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130124/chicago/most-shooters-chicago-dont-face-charges?utm_source=outbrain The homicide clearance rate is just 25%.
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130104/chicago-citywide/chicago-murder-clearance-rate-worst-more-than-two-decades

It's pretty obvious that ANY kind of gun control is going to be a totally wasted effort in this environment. Chicago serves as one case study for why gun laws are nowhere near the dominant factor in homicide rates, and quite possibly irrelevant.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:02 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The NRA is pushing hard to stop universal background checks. They used to be for them. Can somebody (I'm looking at you, DMan) please explain how background checks violate the Second Amendment?


Good question. Let's explore the issue and start here: Henry, do you believe that requiring a voter to show ID violates the Constitution? If yes, then why?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Bland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:20 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:The NRA is pushing hard to stop universal background checks. They used to be for them. Can somebody (I'm looking at you, DMan) please explain how background checks violate the Second Amendment?


Good question. Let's explore the issue and start here: Henry, do you believe that requiring a voter to show ID violates the Constitution? If yes, then why?


Further proof that if you ask a stupid question and you'll get a stupid answer.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:45 am

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:The NRA is pushing hard to stop universal background checks. They used to be for them. Can somebody (I'm looking at you, DMan) please explain how background checks violate the Second Amendment?


Good question. Let's explore the issue and start here: Henry, do you believe that requiring a voter to show ID violates the Constitution? If yes, then why?


I've spent hours now searching the internet for even one single example of a ballot killing someone. Nothing.

Now, if you were telling me your gun was necessary to make sure that no one messes with your voting rights, I'd be mighty impressed. But you completely missed that part in your education.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:30 am

BSH wrote:Here's the only objection to "universal" background checks: the government will use them to create a de facto gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation.


This is a huge statement, please support it.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:25 pm

10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... fact-check
Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime..

Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns. Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?.

Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check.
• 20% of licensed California gun dealers agreed to sell handguns to researchers posing as illegal "straw" buyers.
• The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives has not had a permanent director for 6 years, due to an NRA-backed requirement that the Senate approve nominees.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:11 pm

wack wack wrote:
BSH wrote: gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation.


This is a huge statement, please support it.


I'll just start with the last 15 years to keep it simple. UK, Australia, and Canada. That's just the Western, "free" nations; I'm not even going to go to the more openly authoritarian governments.

I'd like to see examples of governments that did NOT, later on down the line, use gun registration as a tool to support gun confiscation. It goes against everything in human nature that such an example could ever have existed.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:46 pm

BSH wrote:I'll just start with the last 15 years to keep it simple. UK, Australia, and Canada. That's just the Western, "free" nations; I'm not even going to go to the more openly authoritarian governments.

I'd like to see examples of governments that did NOT, later on down the line, use gun registration as a tool to support gun confiscation. It goes against everything in human nature that such an example could ever have existed.


Er, I think you were asked to support your position with "evidence". Absent of that I get the feeling that the objective of your posts has more to do with distraction, although you may have not been aware of that.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:05 am

BSH wrote:
wack wack wrote:
BSH wrote: gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation.


This is a huge statement, please support it.


I'll just start with the last 15 years to keep it simple. UK, Australia, and Canada. That's just the Western, "free" nations; I'm not even going to go to the more openly authoritarian governments.

I'd like to see examples of governments that did NOT, later on down the line, use gun registration as a tool to support gun confiscation. It goes against everything in human nature that such an example could ever have existed.


BSH, apparently you never went to high school or college. When one is asked to "support" an assertion, it is expected that the support will include background, dates and titles of legislation, and links to other evidence. Mad Howler is exactly right.

Clarifying your assertion is not providing support. Please try again.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:42 am

wack wack wrote:
BSH wrote:Here's the only objection to "universal" background checks: the government will use them to create a de facto gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation.


This is a huge statement, please support it.


What happened to Bull Shit Hurler?

Still waiting to learn all about the history of gun confiscation.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Detritus » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:45 am

wack wack wrote:
wack wack wrote:
BSH wrote:Here's the only objection to "universal" background checks: the government will use them to create a de facto gun registration system, which historically always leads to confiscation.


This is a huge statement, please support it.


What happened to Bull Shit Hurler?

Still waiting to learn all about the history of gun confiscation.

Well, in 1543 the Japanese government confiscated all the guns in the country--and we all know how that turned out.
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