MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters 
Wednesday, April 23, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 30.0° F  Partly Cloudy
Collapse Photo Bar

The Immigration Debate

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:57 am

pjbogart wrote: alienating your most reliable voting bloc hardly seems like good politics.

Which is why I'm sure President Obama will very soon be addressing issues afflicting blacks such as mass incarceration, inner city poverty, job discrimination, an unemployment rate twice that of whites, a median household income one-twentieth of white familes, racist public school closings......
Stella_Guru
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:08 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby wack wack » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:07 am

Stella_Guru wrote:
pjbogart wrote: alienating your most reliable voting bloc hardly seems like good politics.

Which is why I'm sure President Obama will very soon be addressing issues afflicting blacks such as mass incarceration, inner city poverty, job discrimination, an unemployment rate twice that of whites, a median household income one-twentieth of white familes, racist public school closings......


To paraphrase an old joke: President Obama only needs to be faster than the Republicans, not the bear.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3001
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby bleurose » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:02 pm

I have a general question for anyone who cares to answer. What do people think about no automatic citizenship for individuals born in the U.S to parents who are here either illegally or on temporary visas?

I don't know what I think yet about that, I can see arguments on both sides of that which sound rational to me. Which is one reason I'm still stuck spinning mental wheels on that one. It seems to be generating a fair amount of discussion on some boards (NYT, Wash Post - I think).

Comments?
bleurose
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:46 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby The One » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:21 pm

bleurose wrote:I have a general question for anyone who cares to answer. What do people think about no automatic citizenship for individuals born in the U.S to parents who are here either illegally or on temporary visas?

I don't know what I think yet about that, I can see arguments on both sides of that which sound rational to me. Which is one reason I'm still stuck spinning mental wheels on that one. It seems to be generating a fair amount of discussion on some boards (NYT, Wash Post - I think).

Comments?

You would have to repeal the 14th Amendment in order to do so. I'm not sure if you can repeal one section, in this case it would be Section 1. I understand Dred Scott isn't an issue anymore, but it would still have many legal issues for children of legal immigrants, my son being one of them. In my opinion, that would a huge change to only deal with a small part of the immigration issue.
The One
Senior Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Detritus » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:24 pm

bleurose wrote:I have a general question for anyone who cares to answer. What do people think about no automatic citizenship for individuals born in the U.S to parents who are here either illegally or on temporary visas?

What is supposed to be gained by doing this? Or, perhaps I should say, who would stand to gain from doing this?
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby snoqueen » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:35 pm

I don't get why the born-here children of non-citizens are automatically citizens either, but politically this law would be extremely hard to back out of for about a zillion reasons.

Who would benefit from the change? That's my usual test question on these matters.

I understand Dred Scott isn't an issue anymore, but it would still have many legal issues for children of legal immigrants...


That's not what she was asking about. The question was about born-here children of people on temporary visas or without papers.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10960
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:39 pm

snoqueen wrote:I don't get why the born-here children of non-citizens are automatically citizens either


Are you a citizen of the United States because YOU were born here or because your parents are citizens? I think it's the former and if it applies to you, why not a child of ANYONE.

I had friends who lived in Amsterdam for a while and chose to have a kid there so they could have dual citizenship. This isn't something unique to the US.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4538
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby snoqueen » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:54 pm

If it's customary internationally that people are citizens of wherever they're born (instead of wherever their parents are citizens) then obviously the US should conform, just on principles of fairness and equality. I didn't know people went to Europe and had kids so they could have dual citizenship (the kids could, not the parents, right?), but it sounds like a good idea in these times.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10960
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:57 pm

Americans of Irish ancestory can also get dual citizenship, as long as one of their grandparents was born on the Emerald Isle.

My dad could do that, but I miss by a generation.
Last edited by Henry Vilas on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19165
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:04 pm

If easy foreign citizenship is what you're after, just convert to Judaism or, if you're too invested in another faith, simply marry a Jew. Either of those will guarantee you are able to obtain Israeli citizenship.
And who wouldn't want to live in Israel, am I right?
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8617
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:23 pm

snoqueen wrote:If it's customary internationally that people are citizens of wherever they're born (instead of wherever their parents are citizens) then obviously the US should conform, just on principles of fairness and equality.
So, if other countries do it, we should do it too? I'm not arguing with the idea of birthright citizenship, rather the idea that we should mimic the policies of other countries on the basis of "fairness" (for whom?).
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:35 pm

My Irish example is more descriptive than proscriptive. Anyways, I thought anarchists like you don't believe in the concept of national citizenship.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19165
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:47 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:My Irish example is more descriptive than proscriptive.
I wasn't really curious, but thanks anyway.
Henry Vilas wrote:Anyways, I thought anarchists like you don't believe in the concept of national citizenship.
It depends. In an ideal world, there would be no state to be a citizen of, and everyone could just work, live and play anywhere they wanted without legal restriction. Under the constraints of political, cultural, and geographical realities, it's a lot more complicated and I recognize that.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby snoqueen » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:48 pm

Americans of Irish ancestory can also get dual citizenship, as long as one of their grandparents was born on the Emerland Isle.

My dad could do that, but I miss by a generation.


I wonder if Norway does that. I'd qualify. Norway is pretty cool.

... if other countries do it, we should do it too? I'm not arguing with the idea of birthright citizenship, rather the idea that we should mimic the policies of other countries on the basis of "fairness" (for whom?).


I think there is a reciprocal quality to this practice that would be valuable in international relations. We accept your people's babies born here, you accept our people's babies born there. In this way, our people are of equal value and have the same fundamental rights. That's one piece of the whole human rights puzzle.

I believe the nations of the world should treat one another as equals insofar as possible as an acknowledgment of our interdependence, mutual respect, and the precedence humanity (in the sense of humanness) takes over nationality.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 10960
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Immigration Debate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:18 pm

snoqueen wrote:I think there is a reciprocal quality to this practice that would be valuable in international relations. We accept your people's babies born here, you accept our people's babies born there. In this way, our people are of equal value and have the same fundamental rights. That's one piece of the whole human rights puzzle.
I see what you are saying, but I think you are conflating two different arguments for birthright citizenship. It is fine to stand up for a humane birthright citizenship policy on the merits of human decency and human rights, but it is another thing to say that such a policy should be adopted in the name of international legal reciprocity. What if France were to execute foreigners who birthed children on their soil? Should we reciprocate?
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

PreviousNext

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


FacebookcommentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar