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Politics and the CT shooting

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:37 pm

pjbogart wrote:A schoolteacher in Connecticut has numerous automatic weapons in her home for self defense, including a military grade assault rifle?


It is statements like this that should disqualify you from this discussion.

Do you know what an automatic weapon is?

Do you know that they have been essentially illegal under federal law since 1934?

I am amazed at how many people wet their pants at the mere thought of guns. They are much harder to come by now than when I was a boy. Then, 1950's, anyone could buy pretty much any gun or ammo in most jurisdictions. As a 10 year old I bought .22 caliber ammo for my semiautomatic gun. As 12 year olds, my cousin and I bought a couple of boxes of shotgun shells so we could get the black powder to make a rocket. (I don't say it was a good idea, merely that we did it)

In the 3rd grade, as part of class, not an extracurricular activity, I learned to shoot a 22 in a school within sight of the Washington Monument.

In the 3rd grade one of my buddies brought a 45 cal automatic burp gun to class for show and tell. Our teacher, Maxine Ropeshaw, did not get hysterical. She simply racked it open to make sure it was clear before passing it around.

You used to be able to sell Boy's Life magazine and, if you sold enough, get a gun as a prize.

Until 1963, most any kind of gun could be purchased by mail, no questions asked.

In 1966, in HS in Fall Church VA (near Tysons Corners) my classmates would routinely bring rifles to school. They might keep them in a locker to go shooting after school or even work on them in shop class.

In 1966, 3 of my buddies and I almost bought a working 37mm cannon at a used arms lot in Alexandria. It was only a couple hundred dollars. Our parents put the kibosh on that. Not because it was dangerous or illegal. Just none of them wanted it cluttering up their back yard.

And yet now somehow guns are a problem.

I say bullshit. Government and their desire to take guns away is the problem.

I've not held a gun since 74 when I carried a 45 in the Navy. Nor have I had any desire too. I strongly support the personal right to keep and bear arms. I was a member of the NRA for a number of years because of that belief.

I keep thinking that maybe I need to go out and buy some guns and ammo just as a personal statement.

John Henry
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby rabble » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:39 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
rabble wrote:John, you do understand that "violent crimes" is not the same thing as "violent deaths," right?


Of course.

John Henry

Good. And do you understand the phrase "no source cited?"

I missed it because all I looked at was the first line where it said "violent crimes" and asked my question. But as pj pointed out and you pointedly ignored, how do you know he didn't just make up some numbers?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:57 pm

There seems to be a meme that these mass shootings are becoming more common in recent years. It doesn't really matter whether it is actually true or not. If the public can be made to believe it is, they may support laws that are, supposedly, aimed at reducing them.

What I have not seen asked is why we have so many shootings?

Is it possible that these shootings, at least some of them, are actually done by the government as false flag operations? So 28 people had to be killed in CT? That might be a small price to pay to advance some govt policy.

Before anyone goes off about how ridiculous and outlandish this is, think of all the accusations of false flag with the WTC and Pentagon bombings. "Bush had teams sneak into the buildings, plant explosives and blow them up as an excuse to go to war in Iraq." If this kind of thinking is plausible (and several here in this Forum seem to think it is) then why would Obama ordering shooting up a school be so implausible?

How many schoolchildren has Obama already killed with his indiscriminate double-tap droning? What difference would 28 more make if for a good cause?


John Henry
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:01 pm

Hey jh, this isn't the 1950's anymore. Nor is it the 1800's or 1700's. Times change, things change, and we change. Keep living in the past all knowing one.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby pjbogart » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:16 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Jeepers, Johnboy, for a college professor you sure don't demand much sourcing of information. And for a guy who refers to himself as a "Bookworm" it seems that telling us where he gets his statistics wouldn't be much to ask.


So what are you saying PJ, that the chart is wrong and the US actually is in the top 10 for violent crimes?

Or are you just whining again?

John Henry


I'm saying that when you offer links you should make sure that your links have a shred of credibility.

Was I whining? Again? This coming from a guy who suggests that maybe Obama ordered the murder of 20 first-graders to further his agenda? Really?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:26 pm

rabble wrote:I missed it because all I looked at was the first line where it said "violent crimes" and asked my question. But as pj pointed out and you pointedly ignored, how do you know he didn't just make up some numbers?


Because I have had this discussion a number of times over the past 20 years and have done the research. The data is readily available. The UN publishes international crime stats. So does Interpol, varous US govt sources, Britain's equivalent of the Statistical Abstract and so on.

I do not know that the numbers in the chart are exactly precise. They do look similar to other numbers I have seen over the years. The main point is that the US is not even in the top 10.

We have also been improving pretty dramatically.

Violent crime victimization rates in the US have dropped from 44.5/100,000 in 1995 to 17.1 in 2009 (2012 Statistical Abstract table 315)

You could look it up.

You mentioned homicide rates as opposed to crime rates. OK, you could look them up too. In the US it has dropped from 10.2/1000 in 1980 to 5.4 in 2008 (2012 Abstract, table 312)

It has gone up dramatically in many of the other countries in the list. Britain especially, during the same period. These countries all have very strong laws against guns yet gun murders are up sharply.

John Henry
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:33 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:"Bush had teams sneak into the buildings, plant explosives and blow them up as an excuse to go to war in Iraq." If this kind of thinking is plausible (and several here in this Forum seem to think it is)


Please cite the forum topics about this please since you have seemed to research this.

pjbogart wrote:This coming from a guy who suggests that maybe Obama ordered the murder of 20 first-graders to further his agenda? Really?


And this surprises you?

johnfajardohenry wrote:Until 1963, most any kind of gun could be purchased by mail, no questions asked.


I'm wondering what happened shortly after that which changed this. Someone was able to buy a gun through the mail and kill a relatively important political figure.

johnfajardohenry wrote:In the 3rd grade one of my buddies brought a 45 cal automatic burp gun to class for show and tell.


That's so cute. I guess there wasn't any problem on the streets with machine guns from the 20's to the 50's. Hmmm, what was going on during that time.

The number of guns in the US has dramatically risen. You may say this is a good or a bad thing. Whatever, I honestly think you are full of shit and have no track record on this forum of saying anything relevant or meaningful. But let me leave you with this. I am stealing it from a prominent anti-gun advocate and you may have seen it. To paraphrase:

If only the school shooter's mother had guns to protect herself from him.

nuff said.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:37 pm

Well, now we know JH is now an expert on guns and crime. Add it to the list.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby pjbogart » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:40 pm

I honestly don't care how many ridiculous opinions Mr. Henry offers, but if he's going to post statistics and facts, I expect them to be accurate and sourced.

Did you know that there are more guns per capita in Madison than there are in Detroit? No? That's because I just made it up. Maybe there are and maybe there aren't, but just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it so.

So opine away, but if you're going to offer facts, at the very least make sure other people can check the source even if you're too lazy to do so yourself.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby Igor » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:53 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote: Maybe I come from a calmer family, but we regularly disagreed politically at the dinner table.


You came from a calmer family.

So did I. Although we disagreed about some stuff, I don't recall ever really having a yelling match about anything. I'm sure there may have been one, but nothing big or memorable. Certainly not at the table, and absolutely not at Thanksgiving or Christmas. What is the point? We knew who was a Democrat and who was a Republican. Since you aren't going to change anyone's opinions in 60 minutes time, what was the point of making the meal unpleasant?

By way of contrast, my aunt and uncle's family apparently has a number of people that have thrown items at each other, been banned from each other's houses, etc., primarily because of political disagreements.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby kurt_w » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:20 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Is it possible that these shootings, at least some of them, are actually done by the government as false flag operations? So 28 people had to be killed in CT? That might be a small price to pay to advance some govt policy.

[...]]

why would Obama ordering shooting up a school be so implausible?


You are out of your mind.

Seriously. I can't believe I'm reading this disgusting nonsense.

What kind of deranged person writes something like that?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:48 am

kurt_w wrote:You are out of your mind.

Seriously. I can't believe I'm reading this disgusting nonsense.
Do you mean, "seriously out of [his] mind", or "seriously can't believe you are reading this"? I think both are hyperbole, but the latter isn't believable to me.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby wack wack » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:50 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:Is it possible that these shootings, at least some of them, are actually done by the government as false flag operations? So 28 people had to be killed in CT? That might be a small price to pay to advance some govt policy.

John Henry


It's much more likely the whole operation was planned and executed by the NRA, in order to protect and further their marketing campaign of fear. Once they realized Obama really didn't plan on taking any guns, the decided to take action to force his hand.
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby kurt_w » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:54 am

Arturo, take it however you choose. Does it even matter?

The guy is suggesting that President Obama might have secretly ordered a mass killing at an elementary school in Connecticut as a ruse to sway public opinion or something.

That's insane. And your reaction to that is "Hmmmm ... I wonder what Kurt meant when he used the word 'Seriously' there ..."?
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Re: Politics and the CT shooting

Postby jman111 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:58 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
kurt_w wrote:You are out of your mind.

Seriously. I can't believe I'm reading this disgusting nonsense.
Do you mean, "seriously out of [his] mind", or "seriously can't believe you are reading this"? I think both are hyperbole, but the latter isn't believable to me.

He literally can't believe he's reading that nonsense.
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