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Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:05 pm

Huckleby wrote:But it's also pretty clear that photo ID is accepted by public and will be the law in the long run.

Not if the federal and the various states constitutions are still the ultimate law of the land.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:38 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:But it's also pretty clear that photo ID is accepted by public and will be the law in the long run.

Not if the federal and the various states constitutions are still the ultimate law of the land.


Requiring photo ID is not inherently unconstitutional, the problem is that state has to provide enough access to those IDs that nobody (or close to) have a barrier to getting them. I haven't studied the rulings, but the reports I've seen from Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are just delaying the requirements until after this election so that states can get their act together.

Do you (or anybody else) not see that poor people getting IDs is a good thing? HAving ID makes a person a more full participant in the enonomy, and (in my view) more engaged in society and more likely to vote.

I'm guessing much of the skepticism is that the IDs just won't get broadly distributed. OK, I see that argument. But that is not insurmountable barrier.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Huckleby wrote:I'm guessing much of the skepticism is that the IDs just won't get broadly distributed. OK, I see that argument. But that is not insurmountable barrier.

It is if the Republicans decide it is. They'll block federal funding and insist 'the states can do it better'. Republican controlled states will limit availability any way they can. Except in wealthy suburban districts, where IDs will be dispensed at every Starbucks and golf club.

Also, it servers no useful purpose other than to appease completely baseless fears stoked by the Republican propaganda machine.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:24 pm

DCB wrote:They'll block federal funding and insist 'the states can do it better'. Republican controlled states will limit availability any way they can. Except in wealthy suburban districts, where IDs will be dispensed at every Starbucks and golf club.


This, as I see it, is the biggest problem and the reason I can't agree with you Huck. States that are trying to implement this are all over the place. One state one way, another state doing it their way. This HAS to be done on a federal level. Dems don't want it and Repubs don't want it done federally. You'll have some states with it, some without.

It's all fumucked up. Come up with national guidelines and then let the states implement. Until then I won't support the suppression.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:44 pm

I'm not asking you to love photo ID laws. But start by accepting that they are coming.

From my standpoint, I welcome the laws because I've been to the mountain top, and I've gazed out upon a sea of newly empowered Democratic voters.

Ya, I suppose Republicans will never cooperate with making ID more available, but the public will be behind Dem efforts, and the Dems will win this battle once they take it on energetically.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:07 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:But it's also pretty clear that photo ID is accepted by public and will be the law in the long run.

Not if the federal and the various states constitutions are still the ultimate law of the land.


Requiring photo ID is not inherently unconstitutional...

It is unconstitutional in Wisconsin, as ruled by our state's courts. Our state constitution explicity says what is required to vote. Nothing about a government issued ID is mentioned.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:15 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:It is unconstitutional in Wisconsin, as ruled by our state's courts. Our state constitution explicity says what is required to vote. Nothing about a government issued ID is mentioned.


Again, in Wisconsin and across the country, the controversy is whether the ID laws can be implemented without significant disenfrachisement for THIS November. It's a time crunch issue. The photo ID laws are going to be in effect in the future.
It's true that WI judge has declared photo ID unconstitutional, but you can bet it is going to be overturned on appeal after the election.

Photo ID is coming, so adapt.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics ... hort-lived

After Election Day, many of these measures could be enacted; on that, legal scholars on both sides of the debate agree.

"It's a short-term victory for opponents of these laws, but long-term prospects for opposing voter ID in court are quite dim in most places," says Richard Hasen, a law professor at the University of California, Irvine, and author of the Election Law blog.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby fennel » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:33 pm

Photo ID laws may eventually become constitutional, but only when their implementation no longer disnenfranchises voters. And that's precisely the point at which the Rs will lose interest, of course, since the strategic goal was just that – disenfranchising voters.

When the burden of obtaining proper ID is no greater than for signing up for pre-paid cell phone service or a check cashing service, or for assigning one's name to a gas utility account; then it will probably meet the constitutional standard.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:43 pm

fennel wrote:Photo ID laws may eventually become constitutional, but only when their implementation no longer disnenfranchises voters. And that's precisely the point at which the Rs will lose interest, of course, since the strategic goal was just that – disenfranchising voters.

I don't think you understand the other side of the issue. Ya, a desire to suppress voter turnout drove the urgency. But the large majority of people who support photo ID have zero interest in disenfranchising anybody. They sincerely believe that photo ID is a reasonable precaution.


fennel wrote:When the burden of obtaining proper ID is no greater than for signing up for pre-paid cell phone service or a check cashing service, or for assigning one's name to a gas utility account; then it will probably meet the constitutional standard.

Well, no, the standards for getting a photo ID will certainly need to be higher than a check cashing service. What is required to get a Driver's license? I can't remember. There would be no point to a photo ID if some verification isn't done. These are problems that have to be worked out.

As a Democrat, the critical issue for me is to make photo IDs required for ALL government interactions, not just voting. That is what will make it work. Once IDs are required to collect foodstamps, they will spread like wildfire through the poor communities.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:57 am

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/int ... ri-berman/

A lot to learn about voter suppression from this guy.

The photo ID stuff aspect of suppression is the tip of the iceberg. Limiting early voting is more cynical and indefensible, IMO. My pet peeve is taking vote away from felons. Why would society want to further marginalize ex-cons? Florida and Texas are truly grim places.

I am wildly optimistic. We're seeing a desperate, last gasp by reactionaries that is not going to work. Voter supression attempts will backfire, they are alienating and motivating people.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:19 am

The U.S. Constitution allows states to disenfranchise felons. Unless amended, (some) states will continue to do so.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:I don't think you understand the other side of the issue. Ya, a desire to suppress voter turnout drove the urgency. But the large majority of people who support photo ID have zero interest in disenfranchising anybody. They sincerely believe that photo ID is a reasonable precaution.

Pretty arrogant of you to make that claim. I've been following this issue for a while now, and yes I've heard lots of well-meaning people who are worried fraud. The fact is, 'voter fraud' is practically negligible. Dismissing such concerns isn't elitist, or inflexible, or narrow-minded. It is the only rational position.
I don't why you insist on enabling ignorance.
Huckleby wrote: Once IDs are required to collect foodstamps, they will spread like wildfire through the poor communities.

I also don't understand why you want to create artificial barriers to getting food stamps.You might as well join the GOP.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby rabble » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:15 pm

DCB wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I don't think you understand the other side of the issue. Ya, a desire to suppress voter turnout drove the urgency. But the large majority of people who support photo ID have zero interest in disenfranchising anybody. They sincerely believe that photo ID is a reasonable precaution.

Pretty arrogant of you to make that claim. I've been following this issue for a while now, and yes I've heard lots of well-meaning people who are worried fraud.

It is possible to make the case both ways, and I think you and Huck are talking about two slightly different demographics.

In my own humble opinion though, Huck should end his statement with "But they don't give a shit if anybody should happen to get disenfranchised by it."
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:06 pm

DCB wrote: The fact is, 'voter fraud' is practically negligible. Dismissing such concerns isn't elitist, or inflexible, or narrow-minded. It is the only rational position.

I agree with your opinion, but it is not the only rational position.

DCB wrote:I don't why you insist on enabling ignorance.

It is not possible to prove that fraud is non-existent. There are ways that illegals, for instance, could show up with utility bills and vote. State-issued ID is in fact a weak fix for this potential problem, but it is better.

People who think photo ID is a sensible precaution are neither ignorant or irrational. They have a different world view. It is a judgement shared by most Americans.

DCB wrote:I also don't understand why you want to create artificial barriers to getting food stamps.You might as well join the GOP.
LOL Nah, I hardly want to stop anybody from recieving government services. I'm being pragmatic: if people need a state ID to collect foodstamps, or welfare, or get a fishing license or buy a bus pass, the IDs will find their way to 99% of the population. So the end result will be zero barriers to gov services, and 99% of population good-to-go for voter registration.
What's not to like about this result?
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:14 pm

rabble wrote:In my own humble opinion though, Huck should end his statement with "But they don't give a shit if anybody should happen to get disenfranchised by it."


Ya, I think a lot of Republicans don't give a shit. But again, they don't believe it is "disenfranchisement", they believe the individuals have self-disenfranchised themselves.

I really disagree with this point of view. To me, the barriers to voting should be as low as possible. My prefered way of implementing voter ID is that it would only go into effect when, say, 98% of population has ID, and the burden is on government to make this happen. But alas, politics is messy, and such an ideal solution ain't going to pass. The courts are the safeguard.
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