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Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:37 am

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/24/ ... es-in.html

I see that the Supreme Court is ultimately going to rule on South Carolina and Texas (states with high minority populations are treated differently under Voting Right Act.) Texas photo ID is blocked for now, although their other restrictions are allowed.

Well, I forsee endless legal trench warfare between Republicans & Democrats.

I firmly believe that the process of getting ID in the hands of poor people is the key factor in getting them to vote, the mere fact of having valid, state-issued ID makes a person feel like somebody with standing. The process of registering seems much less daunting.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:55 pm

Huckleby wrote:
So you think New Hampshire is only state in union where people will be needing photo ID to register to vote?

My mistake - I mis-read the map. There is so much going on its hard to keep track. And the situation is still very fluid.
Huckleby wrote:
I think this map shows the momentum of public opinion in favor of voter ID.

I think it shows the coordinated efforts of right-wing extremists. They are taking advantage of the 2010 Republican sweep to push their agenda.I doubt that it represents public opinion generally. Did Walker run on this issue? I don't think so.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:16 am

DCB wrote: I think it shows the coordinated efforts of right-wing extremists.


Arguably that is true too. But the large majority of Americans are not extreme, and they think a photo ID to vote is common sense policy. Framing the problem as a struggle of good versus evil leads to ineffective strategies. Trying to block photo ID in courts because it is "right thing to do" is worth doing, but overall it is a losing tactic, the Republicans are able to make minor accomodations and keep laws alive.

The problem is not that photo ID is required for photo. The problem is the insane state of affairs where so many poor & minority people have no ID. I think the Dems could garner far more voters by addressing this problem in aggressive, sustained way compared to the marginal numbers that end up not voting because of voter ID law. And they would be swimming with the currents of public opinion.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 am

Huckleby wrote:But the large majority of Americans are not extreme, and they think a photo ID to vote is common sense policy.


There was a time when enslaving those different from you was "common sense," too. Thank goodness we have education to counter common sense. Every court decision against any aspect of any ID law buys more time for consideration and education.

Dim as my view of humanity may be, I don't believe a large majority of Americans will continue to view voter suppression as "common sense."
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:26 am

This just in:
Judge blocks Pennsylvania voter ID law

A Pennsylvania judge ruled Tuesday that state officials cannot enforce a new voter identification law in next month's presidential election.

The ruling by Commonwealth Court Judge Robert Simpson is expected to be appealed.
...
The state Supreme Court had given Simpson until Tuesday -- five weeks before the election -- to rule on the matter.

In his ruling, Simpson granted a preliminary injunction that temporarily halts enforcement of the law until after the election.

He cited likely disqualification of eligible voters as the reason.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:00 am

wack wack wrote:There was a time when enslaving those different from you was "common sense," too. Thank goodness we have education to counter common sense. Every court decision against any aspect of any ID law buys more time for consideration and education.

Dim as my view of humanity may be, I don't believe a large majority of Americans will continue to view voter suppression as "common sense."


Most people are *never* going to think like you. You are judging this problem from your own liberal point of view. Most people do not see photo ID requirement as voter suppression and they never will. Listen to what non-liberals are saying. Most people have drivers licenses, they think others should be responsible and get an ID.

How many Americans do you suppose understand why poor people use check cashing services, or pay day advance loans? There are one of these crooked stores on every block of low income neighborhoods. To middle class people, you get yourself an ID, which allows you to open a bank account, and you would never dream of forking-over 20% of your income to some crook in order to do your banking.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:07 am

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/6957.html

India is in the process of creating a national ID system that identifies and registers something like 600 million people. Poor people without identification tend to live in shadows, they receive less government services and by definition they don't vote.

A national ID card would be a giant boon for progressive politics in America. Progressives are slow to see this. But never mind, the paranoid, anti-government American mind may never accept a national ID card. But the next best thing is to get as many people carrying valid ID as possible. This is the best first step in expanding voter registration rolls, IMO.

What is downside to requiring photo IDs for people to receive food stamps, or get fishing licenses, or interact in any way with local or federal government? Our current system is well on way to requiring photo ID ONLY for voting, which is worst possible case.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:11 am

Henry Vilas wrote:This just in:
Judge blocks Pennsylvania voter ID law


This is good news for this election. But from what I've seen on TV reports, the problem there is that there isn't time to implement a Voter ID card (which will be easier to get than regular state ID, but still photo ID.)

There is going to be a photo ID requirement in Pennsylvania in the future, it won't be as offensive as ID requirements that satisfy homeland security guidelines. Namely, they won't have to acquire a birth certificate, which can be costly and difficult in some cases.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:31 am

Wait wait wait, hold on a minute... Huck, are you under the impression that all these Voter ID drives are actually about increasing the distribution of official identification?

If that's the case, let's set up ID stations at the polling places. Let's outfit a bus and go block to block. let's enable any and every government office and agency to issue ID. let's set up grocery stores, everyone has to eat. Hell, let's take it to the public as directly as possible: set up the money stores to issue ID.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:50 am

wack wack wrote:Wait wait wait, hold on a minute... Huck, are you under the impression that all these Voter ID drives are actually about increasing the distribution of official identification?.

not sure what "Voter ID drives" refer to. You mean voter registration drives?

wack wack wrote:If that's the case, let's set up ID stations at the polling places. Let's outfit a bus and go block to block. let's enable any and every government office and agency to issue ID. let's set up grocery stores, everyone has to eat. Hell, let's take it to the public as directly as possible: set up the money stores to issue ID.

Sounds fine to me. I am for any and every creative idea for getting IDs in the hands of all Americans. I think ID expansion and voter registration expansion go hand-in-hand, although ID expansion is just a piece of puzzle that gets more poor people voting.

Voter suppression is being done in many ways. Court fights will continue to be important part of the overall struggle. Voter suppression through photo ID is a tough political/legal battle for progressives, so I'm suggesting that Dems make lemonade out of this lemon.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:13 pm

Huckleby wrote:
wack wack wrote:Wait wait wait, hold on a minute... Huck, are you under the impression that all these Voter ID drives are actually about increasing the distribution of official identification?.

not sure what "Voter ID drives" refer to. You mean voter registration drives?

wack wack wrote:If that's the case, let's set up ID stations at the polling places. Let's outfit a bus and go block to block. let's enable any and every government office and agency to issue ID. let's set up grocery stores, everyone has to eat. Hell, let's take it to the public as directly as possible: set up the money stores to issue ID.

Sounds fine to me. I am for any and every creative idea for getting IDs in the hands of all Americans. I think ID expansion and voter registration expansion go hand-in-hand, although ID expansion is just a piece of puzzle that gets more poor people voting.

Voter suppression is being done in many ways. Court fights will continue to be important part of the overall struggle. Voter suppression through photo ID is a tough political/legal battle for progressives, so I'm suggesting that Dems make lemonade out of this lemon.


I meant the drive for Voter ID, as in the same or very similar legislation being pushed through state governments across the country. Sounds like a drive to me. Perhaps "push" is more appropriate. Or is your question meant to suggest that the push for ID is related to something other than voting?

I'm all for making lemonade... as long as lemonade is the ultimate goal, regardless of cost, complication or security. But it's not the ultimate goal. Security trumps convenience and cost trumps all.

Do you believe in lemonade at any cost, or is it reasonable to temper the production based on finance and security concerns?
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:41 pm

wack, the Photo ID requirements are certainly part of voter suppression efforts. And no, the motive of Republicans has nothing to do with expanding ID availability.

Most states are eventually going to have photo ID requirements of some sort because the public sees such laws as reasonable, and most people don't acknowledge the voter suppression aspect. My sense is that it will not be possible to change most peoples minds on this, the Republicans have a simpler, more intuitive argument to make, and simpler usually wins.

The best response to this dilemma is for Dems to invest more money and time in expanding ID availability. And a really effective way to really push this forward is to pass legislation that requires photo ID for ALL government services, not just voting.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:45 pm

wack wack wrote:Do you believe in lemonade at any cost, or is it reasonable to temper the production based on finance and security concerns?


You are right that it is hard to expand ID to people who are living fine without one.

It is also hard to get people to register to vote who have shown no inclination to do so in the past.

The process (outreach) of doing the hard work will expand the Dem base. There is a gold mine of non-voters who lean heavily Democratic. The idea of requiring ID for all government services could make the hard work a lot less hard.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:10 pm

Huckleby wrote:Most states are eventually going to have photo ID requirements of some sort because the public sees such laws as reasonable, and most people don't acknowledge the voter suppression aspect. My sense is that it will not be possible to change most peoples minds on this, the Republicans have a simpler, more intuitive argument to make, and simpler usually wins.


An unthinking public sees such laws as reasonable; simple education changes minds. The privilege vs. right conversation is easy to have and easy to understand. I don't hear the "you need a photo ID to drive" argument nearly as often now as I did 6 months ago, because it's a completely bogus argument which can be explained away in a few sentences. People have learned this. It's a small step, but it is a step forward.

Have you ever suggested to someone that they need a photo ID to criticize the American government out loud? I have. It's amusing to see the reactions and hear just how absurd I am for even suggesting such a thing! Adding requirements to the right to vote is no more reasonable than that, regardless of what the people of America might think.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:20 pm

wack wack wrote: An unthinking public sees such laws as reasonable; simple education changes minds.

No, the education is not simple. Understanding why so many people in the year 2012 get through life without ID is complicated sociology.

These are examples of simple arguments that resonate with people:
1 Getting ID is not hard and a matter of personal responsibility.
2 Illegals are voting in high numbers because they can.
3 Fraud is occuring that can not be detected, therefore the stats indicating low fraud are bogus.

I can debunk these arguments, but the debunking doesn't seem to stick because the debunking is complicated, and I think people want to hang-on to the myths just in case they are right. There is no way to definitively prove either side of the fraud versus suppression debate. People hang on to the side that feels right.

Look, if you think it is possible to turn-around public opinion with "simple education", then I wish you well. This is not a new issue! There has already been plenty of education, and people are fine with requiring photo ID.
Last edited by Huckleby on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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