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Madison oh Madison

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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby HawkHead » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:19 am

Maybe we should raise property taxes so we can have a police force that can adquately deal with these issues instead of paying overtime to current officers.

Money saving and more effective???
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby david cohen » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:50 am

Alas, you can't conceal and carry AND visit with your friends in a nightclub even whilst abstaining from alcohol. What is it about that stretch of University Ave. that it's become so dangerous at bar time over the course of the past 3 months? Or is it just an extension of State St. hooliganism? Why is it that my son at Univ. of Minnesota reports no issues around Dinkytown (their weaker equivalent of State St.)? Does the City of Madison tend to meld into the UW campus so much that thugs are picking on UW students more brazenly now? Shootings and stabbings and group assaults in front of a crowd are a different crime than one on one muggings or sexual assaults...what gives?
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:06 pm

Crockett wrote:No gang problem here.

Here is some wild speculation on my part: The attackers (who said something about nine more UW football players to go) are gang members and were put up to this assault by some of their affiliates on rival football teams.

Again, just wild speculation.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby jjoyce » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:26 pm

Dinkytown has had its issues over the years with violent crime. And it's really not much like State/University in terms of bars per block.

20 years ago, a friend of mine talks to a girl at a campus bar on State Street. A guy walks up and says, hey, that's my girlfriend. Sorry, says my friend, no offense intended. You guys have a good night. Backs away. A couple hours later, we leave the bar to walk home up Henry Street away from State. Out of nowhere, a guy runs up and punches my friend in the back of the head. He's with three other guys. A guy in our crowd sets something down on the curb and is kicked in the face. I grab someone to prevent him from punching me, but he pulls away and flees, as do the other attackers. The whole thing is over in 10 seconds, but one of my friends is on his hands and knees in the street, dizzy and showing signs of a concussion. My other friend is bleeding from a cut under his eye and ends up having to get stitches.

We talked to a police officer, but the impression we got was that not much is done about bartime fights on campus if someone isn't seriously injured. Indeed, the rest of the city generally rolls its eyes at this stuff. Drunk kids getting crazy. Rinse, repeat. My guess is that if the victim of this crime wasn't Montee Ball, nobody would have heard anything about it and it would end up as unsolved.

Catching these guys would offer an opportunity for the chief to publicly announce that ANY case of violence near campus will be pursued similarly and the offenders prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Thugs should be made to understand that it's almost impossible to get away with this stuff. Unfortunately, I think the message they get now is that the cops are too busy to come after them. Especially at bar time downtown.

Maybe students should start getting pissed off and organize around stuff like this and push the mayor and the chief to do more than send cops in on the weekends. When I was in school here, women were the primary drivers of this kind of pressure and got funding for safe ride, emergency phones and lighting around campus because the conventional wisdom at the time was that men were pretty safe, while women were not.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:Montee Ball has the same right as anyone else to walk around Madison streets unmolested, regardless of the hour and regardless of where he'd been or was going.


It's not a question of his rights. It's a question of prudence. A reasonable person won't have the same expectation of safe passage through that area at 2 a.m. that they will have at 2 p.m. You're correct, his rights are unchanged by the hour of day or location-- but his risks certainly did change. I don't know if it's been reported whether Ball had been drinking, and if so, how much. But again, alcohol doesn't change your right to go unmolested, but it does change your level of vulnerability. And that vulnerability and risk increases as the ethanol level increases.

That's why guys like me teach people about the paramount importance of developing and practicing good awareness skills. Yes, even more important than carrying a gun!

Now it's been asked what could have prevented this from happening. Realistically speaking, probably nothing. Staying home and locking the doors-- yes, but that's not realistic. We shouldn't be prisoners in our own homes. Bodyguards? That's only realistic for wealthy people and only makes sense if you have a greater than normal expectation of a threat. More cops? I don't how many cops it would take to have them everywhere at all places, but I'm sure it would be unfeasible. Cops are a limited resource, operating with limited resources, and in the grand scheme of things probably stop relatively few crimes in progress. Instead they prevent future crimes by determining who committed past ones, tracking them down, and getting them off the street.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Meade wrote:JFK made a bad choice when he overrode the Secret Service's order to have the bullet-proof top put on the limousine. We don't blame JFK for his own assassination. That would be like blaming Mark Pocan for his own character assassination.


The "bubble top" on JFK's limo wasn't bullet proof, but was designed only to protect against inclement weather. But many people have speculated that it would have deflected the lethal bullet. Impossible to say.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:18 pm

wack wack wrote:
Meade wrote:How was my answer not legitimate?

Is self defense not legitimate? Is concealed carry not legitimate in Wisconsin?


Montee Ball would mot be able to draw and kill 5 guys in the midst of 5-1 hand-to-hand comment. Steven Segal, maybe. Not Montee Ball.


That depends, kind of an apples and oranges comparison you're making. Ball is a young strong and well-conditioned athlete, Seagal is an aging bad actor with extensive training in martial arts and firearms. Other than aging, none of those qualities are unfavorable to the respective men. I wouldn't judge Seagal's real world fighting abilities from his movies, but in the situation of being attacked by 5 men I'd give the nod to Seagal as better prepared to handle it, although I'm sure Ball could outrun all five attackers far easier than could Seagal. It doesn't take 5 guys to make it difficult to draw during hand-to-hand combat. One is difficult enough. We (combat shooters) learn that one should not be in too big of a hurry to attempt to draw a gun in the middle of a physical attack. The risk of losing the gun is too great and worse, having it taken by the attacker and used against you. That's why we learn techniques for protecting and retaining the gun, how to create distance between yourself and your attacker, and then drawing the gun at the proper time. Well-rounded skills with a gun will certainly include unarmed fighting skills because the chances are high that an attack will happen suddenly and up close.

But for those who think it's easy to employ an unarmed technique to disarm a person who is armed with a gun, get real. It's difficult and risky for even a highly trained person to do, and made even more difficult and risky if that person with the gun is also trained or street saavy.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:34 pm

Dangerousman wrote:But for those who think it's easy to employ an unarmed technique to disarm a person who is armed with a gun, get real.


I'd just give them the 'ol karate chop.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:41 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
It's not a question of his rights. It's a question of prudence. A reasonable person won't have the same expectation of safe passage through that area at 2 a.m. that they will have at 2 p.m. You're correct, his rights are unchanged by the hour of day or location-- but his risks certainly did change. ....Cops are a limited resource, operating with limited resources, and in the grand scheme of things probably stop relatively few crimes in progress. Instead they prevent future crimes by determining who committed past ones, tracking them down, and getting them off the street.


I can agree with just about everything you said in this post.
Last edited by snoqueen on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby jman111 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:42 pm

Stebben84 wrote:I'd just give them the 'ol karate chop.

Hong Kong Phooey their asses: Image
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:48 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Crockett wrote:No gang problem here.

Here is some wild speculation on my part: The attackers (who said something about nine more UW football players to go) are gang members and were put up to this assault by some of their affiliates on rival football teams.

Again, just wild speculation.


Speculation, but not really that wild. Could have just been big talk from them too. Stranger things have happened, but I'd be less inclined to suspect rival football teams. But gang initiations have frequently involved something as idiotic as this attack. If it is a gang-related thing I hope they don't believe it is an indication of how tough they are. Ruthless, perhaps. But tough, no. It doesn't take any toughness to be one of five against a single individual. In fact it indicates a lack of toughness.

As for your earlier comment that I would have called Ball a "soft target" I would point out that softness is a relative term, and in this case he was a soft target for 5 "men." If he had alcohol onboard, then softer still.

You may not like the term "soft target" but it's just the recognition of the reality that when it comes to comparing potential victims for harm, some will be easier to harm than others or that it will be more of a challenge or require greater resources to inflict a given amount of harm. For example, a crazy guy with a rifle and pistol probably will find those manning an ICBM silo much more difficult targets to damage than a theater packed with popcorn and slushy-guzzling kids and adults. That's a simple fact of life. I know that you find the facts of life frequently to be inconvenient, and that you place greater importance on trying to play around with what you hope will be inflammatory or politically incorrect words and phrases, but to reword an old saw: sticks and stones may break my bones, but inflammatory words and phrases don't hurt me.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:50 pm

snoqueen wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
It's not a question of his rights. It's a question of prudence. A reasonable person won't have the same expectation of safe passage through that area at 2 a.m. that they will have at 2 p.m. You're correct, his rights are unchanged by the hour of day or location-- but his risks certainly did change. ....Cops are a limited resource, operating with limited resources, and in the grand scheme of things probably stop relatively few crimes in progress. Instead they prevent future crimes by determining who committed past ones, tracking them down, and getting them off the street.


I can agree with just about everything you said in this post.


Feel free to agree with everything in all of my posts, Sno. :wink:
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:56 pm

Oh, just curious, is your nom de plume meant to be understood as "snow queen" or a contracted "it's no queen?" Or, something else?
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:19 pm

I can't even remember why I picked it. It was early in 2004, more than eight years ago, and whatever I had in mind at the time is long forgotten.

It was wintertime, so snow or shoveling snow might have had something to do with it. I'm guessing, though.
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Re: Madison oh Madison

Postby fennel » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:18 pm

snoqueen wrote:I can't even remember why I picked it. It was early in 2004, more than eight years ago, and whatever I had in mind at the time is long forgotten.

It was wintertime, so snow or shoveling snow might have had something to do with it. I'm guessing, though.
What? Is it even possible a member with clear-headed commentary –– commentary that doesn't reflexively hew to anybody's particular cheer book –– was not implanted by a well-funded partisan political corporation? Along with specific instructions for choosing usernames?

How could that be?
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