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Paterno: Why he should coach forever

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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Detritus » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:18 am

O.J. wrote:http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191027/penn-state-hit-60-million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998

No death penalty, but a heckuva lot better than doing nothing.

It's a start. Now let's see what the Big 10 and the Department of Ed do.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:55 am

That word "death penalty" is deeply misleading. A one-year suspension is not death.

Judging from the reaction from Penn State fans and athletes, the sanctions are counter-productive. It's punishment, but misdirected punishment. It allows the football program to feel victimized, and insist that football per se was not the issue.

The critical thing was to keep the circus from restarting this fall, identifying the football atmosphere as a contributor to the tragedy. The football program can then not immediately wipe slate clean with "we're moving forward" talk.

The NCAA took the easy, cowardly route because of $$$.

Doing nothing would have been better, because these sanctions only harm innocent people, and they perpetuate the tribal denial. The football culture rolls on, only now with a chip on its shoulder.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby O.J. » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:07 am

Huckleby wrote: Doing nothing would have been better


I sure hope the recipients of the $60 million endowment aren't as sanctimonious as you are, declining the payments out of spite.

Your stance is somewhat akin to saying: James Holmes deserves the death penalty, but if Colorado isn't willing to hand down that sentence, they should just set him free.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:16 am

O.J. wrote: I sure hope the recipients of the $60 million endowment aren't as sanctimonious as you are, declining the payments out of spite.

OK, nothing wrong with the endowment. But that money is meaningless to the football program and the fans. I agree that the money part does no harm and is better than nothing.

(BTW: does that endowment shrink the pool of money available to the civil plaintiffs? )

"sanctimonious" because I want an appropriate resolution to a 14-year child molestation scandal? what a shallow little prick you are.

O.J. wrote:Your stance is somewhat akin to saying: James Holmes deserves the death penalty, but if Colorado isn't willing to hand down that sentence, they should just set him free.


Completely different issues. I'm not interested in punishing anyone at Penn State, whereas James Holmes clearly needs punishment. The criminal and civil courts have already got the punishment part covered.

I am interested in changing a broad mentality. Shutting the football program down for the year probably does less damage to individuals and the football program than the existing sanctions. I am not interested in doing damage, since innocents suffer the most.

The sanctions are the wrong punishment. A one year halt in the circus is the appropriate and focused way.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby O.J. » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:24 am

Huckleby wrote: Shutting the football program down for the year probably does less damage to individuals and the football program than the existing sanctions.


In some ways yes, in some ways no. Shutting down the program for a year would have a negative effect outside of Happy Valley(what do all those schools that have Penn St on the schedule next year do, for instance?), whereas these sanctions are targeted directly at PSU.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:25 am

right, put money ahead of doing the right thing. money for its clients was the ncaa's first concern.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:48 am

Huckleby wrote:I am interested in changing a broad mentality. Shutting the football program down for the year probably does less damage to individuals and the football program than the existing sanctions. I am not interested in doing damage, since innocents suffer the most.

The sanctions are the wrong punishment. A one year halt in the circus is the appropriate and focused way.


I was thinking the same, but reading this gave more perspective on the so called death penalty:
The repercussions of the penalty were severe for SMU. Once one of the top programs in college football, the school only recently became competitive again. The Mustangs had a winning record in only one of the first 20 seasons after returning from the death penalty, before finishing at or above .500 in the past three seasons.


Found some good points here as well.

3. It would punish the wrong people.

Banning the program would penalize the current players, who had nothing to do with the scandal. Yes, I know that is true in most cases. But it is especially true here. How can you blow up a major part of their lives because a coach who retired 13 years ago was a pedophile? How does that make sense?


With the financial punishment from the NCAA and the Big Ten, the School administration is bears the brunt of the punishment. There will be a reduced number of scholarships for new students, which will hurt the overall program, but not stop it in it's tracks like a year long ban. And the current players will have 1-3 less games a year that they might play in, but they still will play their regular season.

The only part of the punishment that seemed odd to me was the vacating of 13 years of wins. If Paterno was alive I could see it, but it just seems like spitting on his grave for the hell of it. Other than the record book, it's completely meaningless, and frankly who ever just became the winning-est coach ever doesn't suddenly look more impressive.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:22 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote: With the financial punishment from the NCAA and the Big Ten, the School administration is bears the brunt of the punishment.


Again, I'm not so concerned about punishing anyone, not even the Penn State School administration. The people working there now are innocents too.

Any disruption is going to punish *somebody*, and probably unfairly.

There are a million people who are a tiny, tiny bit guilty. Make that 10 million. I want them to take a year off of Penn State football. Call that "punishment" if you will.

I am looking for reflection, not punishment. A year long time-out accomplishes that.

Also, a year-long suspension doesn't much hurt the athletes. In fact, it gives them time to consider options, and they don't lose a year of eligibility. The way it is now, they can't hardly transfer to a new school in the two weeks before football starts.

I think the long term sanctions really are pointless. They truly JUST hurt innocent people. I am for ZERO sanctions. Just a one year pause in the circus.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:06 pm

Huckleby wrote:Also, a year-long suspension doesn't much hurt the athletes. In fact, it gives them time to consider options, and they don't lose a year of eligibility. The way it is now, they can't hardly transfer to a new school in the two weeks before football starts.

I think the long term sanctions really are pointless. They truly JUST hurt innocent people. I am for ZERO sanctions. Just a one year pause in the circus.



I think you vastly underestimate the damage a 1 year suspension will cause. Look at SMU's record since 1989. Losing 2 years of football devastated their program. 1 Year won't be as bad, but it will definitely be worse than not getting to play in a bowl game for 4 years.

And in the case of SMU, all of the students were allowed to transfer to other programs. As you pointed out already, it's too late for a transfer at this point in the year. So the entire football team would have to sit around for a year. I'm not sure if their scholarships would be valid in that year, but even if it was, not all of the players are on scholarship, and the vast majority are playing while in school, and have little or no thought of a professional career, so not losing a year of eligibility really doesn't help them that much.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:14 pm

there are no perfect resolutions, or any particularly good ones. My thoughts are that the Penn State program could roll again after a year. SMU's two years is quite different from 1 year suspension. Most, maybe all the players would take a redshirt year, especially on such short notice. But I don't even care that much about the football program consequences. That's sorta the point.

SMU was a corrupt football factory that couldn't function honestly. PSU is sort of the opposite, and they would recover quickly.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Meade » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The only part of the punishment that seemed odd to me was the vacating of 13 years of wins. If Paterno was alive I could see it, but it just seems like spitting on his grave for the hell of it. Other than the record book, it's completely meaningless, and frankly who ever just became the winning-est coach ever doesn't suddenly look more impressive.

This is a good point. Erasing the wins becomes a kind of coverup itself.

Instead, they should simply add an asterisk*:

*wins achieved during years in which an assistant coach abused children - on campus, in the team locker room, the showers, and elsewhere - continuing to do so even after the molestations were brought to the attention of staff, coaches, university officials and administrators, and even to the attention of Joseph Vincent "Joe" Paterno who managed, for at least 13 years, to not only conceal the molestations but to dissuade other university officials from reporting the molester to the police. In fact, Joseph Vincent "Joe" Paterno, was so effective in his dishonesty, so skillful in his hoodwinkery, that he completely fooled hundreds of thousands of fans of football, for example, jjoyce who in 2007 initiated a fawning discussion topic on an internet forum message board :
Paterno: Why he should coach forever... JoePa Will Put Your Ass To Work viewtopic.php?t=22089

EDIT TO ADD: link to alternative 2007 article jjoyce's now-dead link no longer goes to: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/n ... erno052207
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby O.J. » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:59 pm

Huckleby wrote: The way it is now, they can't hardly transfer to a new school in the two weeks before football starts.


It's obviously not an ideal situation. However, unless they've enrolled early, the freshman class isn't even on campus, yet(I believe the Badger fall camp starts roughly Aug 10). Part of the reason for the 4-year bowl ban was to allow any player on Penn State's roster to transfer and play immediately. Furthermore, the NCAA is considering exempting incoming PSU transfers from counting against their new school's scholarship limits.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:22 pm

I appreciate the notion that the NCAA is punishing people who had nothing to do with the infractions, but I think punishments like this are more about warning other schools than extracting a pound of flesh. Vacating a decade of Paterno's wins is particularly harsh, especially considering that the guy just died, but if all of the reports are to be believed, the man deserves none of the accolades bestowed upon him. Not the statues, not the trophies, not the records.

Has there been any talk about revoking Penn State's membership in the Big Ten? It seems like that would be even more of a death sentence, forcing them back into independent status and letting them struggle to even fill their schedule, much less recruit talented players.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Detritus » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:15 pm

pjbogart wrote:Has there been any talk about revoking Penn State's membership in the Big Ten? It seems like that would be even more of a death sentence, forcing them back into independent status and letting them struggle to even fill their schedule, much less recruit talented players.

There was talk of that, but since Penn State can't participate in bowl games now, they seem to have dropped it. They're cutting Penn State's portion of the shared Big Ten revenue, and they're making it easy for players to transfer. There's a story here:

Big Ten adds to Penn State penalties; players can transfer within conference
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:10 pm

I was a little surprised by some of the punishments - the vacating the wins was kind of weird, although there certainly was precedent for some of that. None of the punishments are going to prevent Penn State from playing big-time football. They are just going to prevent them from winning very often in the near future. I think they will come back much quicker than a place like SMU simply because there is less D1 competition in their state, and they will be in a stronger conference.
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