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Gun Mania

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: Gun Mania

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:43 am

Back to the Wisconsin shooting:

Homeowner knew police, partyers were nearby before firing

Less than five minutes before a Slinger homeowner shot and killed a man hiding in his back porch, he had been on the phone with nearby police about how they handled his earlier complaint about an underage drinking party next door, according to a prosecutor's decision that the shooting was justified under Wisconsin's new castle doctrine law.

The victim, 20-year-old Bo Morrison of West Bend, was one of about 20 people at the March 3 party. A report released by District Attorney Mark Bensen last week includes some new information about the tragic shooting, but lacks details such as the names of officers and witnesses. It does raise the question of why Adam Kind chose to get a gun when officers familiar with the situation were less than 300 feet away, and serves as a chilling reminder of the potential stakes of armed self-defense.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Back to the Wisconsin shooting:

Homeowner knew police, partyers were nearby before firing

Less than five minutes before a Slinger homeowner shot and killed a man hiding in his back porch, he had been on the phone with nearby police about how they handled his earlier complaint about an underage drinking party next door, according to a prosecutor's decision that the shooting was justified under Wisconsin's new castle doctrine law.

The victim, 20-year-old Bo Morrison of West Bend, was one of about 20 people at the March 3 party. A report released by District Attorney Mark Bensen last week includes some new information about the tragic shooting, but lacks details such as the names of officers and witnesses. It does raise the question of why Adam Kind chose to get a gun when officers familiar with the situation were less than 300 feet away, and serves as a chilling reminder of the potential stakes of armed self-defense.


and this:

"The night of the party, 16 young people, ranging in age from 15 to 23, were caught in the Hess garage. Most of them denied Morrison had been there. A report from a Jackson police officer who assisted at the scene described the young people as foul-mouthed and insensitive. Even after some of them realized that Morrison had been killed next door, they were joking about hiding in the attic, and complaining about being cut off from beer and cigarettes.

"The attitude and demeanor of everyone involved was in complete disrespect for the seriousness of the situation," the officer wrote.

Morrison, who had studied carpentry at Milwaukee Area Technical College and worked at Menard's, had more reason than others at the party not to get caught. He was out on bail from four pending criminal cases, and as a condition was not to consume alcohol. An autopsy showed he had a blood-alcohol level of 0.19."
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:33 pm

DCB wrote:anything to avoid addressing the substance of the issue.


You don't think "don't break the law" is the substance of the issue?
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:51 pm

Does any of that bad behavior by the partygoers warrant the death penalty?
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:32 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Does any of that bad behavior by the partygoers warrant the death penalty?


Of course not, and nobody died as a result of that bad behavior. Did they? On the other hand these are some of the same people now wringing their hands in indignation over the incident.

On the other hand, Mr. Morrison was committing the crime of bail jumping at the same time he was committing the crime of breaking and entering: just another couple of additions to his history of disregard for the law and for other people.

Despite the headline of the story, there's nothing that indicated that the homeowner knew how close the police were. And why would it matter? You've got a noise indicating an intruder in the house, and even with police a couple blocks away, that's enough time for you, or your family, to get killed several times over.

Henry I hope you don't give out your address, your house must be a very soft target.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:36 pm

Mr. Morrison certainly suffered the death penalty. And is being on someone's back porch "breaking and entering"?
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby fisticuffs » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:47 pm

Image
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Stebben84 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:05 pm

That was a great response.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby snoqueen » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:08 pm

Bail jumping and breaking and entering (however you stretch that definition) aren't capital crimes. And for it to be legal to shoot someone making noise on your back porch just because they could come in and threaten you, when they haven't shown that's their intent or even within their power, is legislation driven by fear not by a realistic assessment of a social problem looking for a solution.

All this week I've been thinking about another gun-related story that goes back more than forty years. (I'll keep this brief and to the point.)

If you recall, at Kent State four students were shot dead by either the police or national guard (question never settled, accountability never brought to bear) during a Vietnam War era demonstration. Around the same time, Madison was having its own demonstrations with much rioting, window-breaking, tear gas, fires, and ongoing disorder. Our own national guard was called out too, and at one point were lined up on Bascom Hill as students demonstrated in front of them. They had fixed bayonets on their weapons, but much later -- decades later -- we learned the guns weren't loaded.

Someone in our Guard made that decision after what happened at Kent. They knew how fast a situation can get out of control, how passionate both sides were, how quickly bad decisions can be made, and they saw that whatever the students were doing wasn't worth taking anyone's life over. It was a courageous and thoughtful decision and I'm sure it wasn't made lightly.

Today that sort of thinking has gone straight out the window with all the NRA-stamped legislation we have regarding carrying and using a gun. The idea of proportionate responses, not only on the individual level but on the overall social level, has been not only ignored but flouted in the passage of these laws. The power to do harm right now so greatly outweighs the potential for benefit that we really need to revisit this whole trend and decide if it's where we want to be going as a society or not.

Just because something is legal does not make it smart or necessary. Unfortunately, something being legal possibly can encourage more people to try it, as we see with armed neighborhood patrols. Is this what we really want?

--edit--

In the Morrison case, the homeowner reportedly did know police were nearby, in fact less than 300 feet away, according to the prosecutor's findings as reported 3/25 by the Journal-Sentinel via the State Journal:

http://host.madison.com/news/state_and_ ... b69a8.html
Last edited by snoqueen on Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:28 pm

snoqueen wrote: Someone in our Guard made that decision after what happened at Kent. They knew how fast a situation can get out of control...

Today that sort of thinking has gone straight out the window with all the NRA-stamped legislation we have regarding carrying and using a gun...
I'll take that stamp and guess that the NRA raises it to $50/$60 million this election cycle. Have you ever watched any of their hour-long TV ads, usually the weekend before the election. Gawd!
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby DCB » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:56 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
DCB wrote:anything to avoid addressing the substance of the issue.


You don't think "don't break the law" is the substance of the issue?

That's a pretty broad brush. I'm not sure where you're going with it.

I thought the argument was that good people should have access to guns, to defend against the bad people. If more good guys were carrying guns, the bad guys would back off. So why doesn't that apply here?

The 'age limit' thing is a cop-out. Shouldn't you be pushing for allowing 17-year-olds to carry guns to defend themselves against self-styled vigilantes like Zimmerman?

Or, looking at it a different way, here's Digby, again:
But if those who always argue that more guns not fewer are the answer to gun violence don't believe that 17 year olds should carry guns, how can they be protected from self-appointed neighborhood "watchmen" like George Zimmerman who are legally carrying a gun and decide to attack them?


Instead, you seem to be suggesting Zimmerman isn't the bad guy here. Why not? "We don't know all the facts" seem like another cop-out.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby lukpac » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:15 am

Dangerousman wrote:Despite the headline of the story, there's nothing that indicated that the homeowner knew how close the police were. And why would it matter? You've got a noise indicating an intruder in the house, and even with police a couple blocks away, that's enough time for you, or your family, to get killed several times over.


No, you have a noise indicating an intruder on the porch. The safest thing to do is...go seek them out? Without loudly stating that you have a gun and will use it?

Dangerousman wrote:Henry I hope you don't give out your address, your house must be a very soft target.


Yawn.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Peanutbutter » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:14 am

A would-be victim says his concealed carry gun was the reason a criminal’s intentions were stopped cold. He says investigators told him it’s possible the man who tried to rob him Saturday night could have robbed others this weekend.

Saturday night, March 24th, Danny Black and his girlfriend Julie took the dogs out for a walk. The two were confronted by the driver of a van in the area of 73rd and Courtland. Worrisome words quickly turned into threatening actions. Black says the driver was armed, and tried to rob the two.

Black says his heart began to pound, but it wasn’t the adrenaline that helped him through. He credits his own firearm. Black has a concealed carry permit, but hoped to never even threaten to use his weapon in public. “Me pulling a gun out saved both of our lives last night. I pointed the gun at him and he said, what was I doing, and just drove off,” Black said.

Black says this incident should serve as a reminder to Wisconsin criminals that the victims they target may no longer be as defenseless as they may have been before the concealed carry law took effect in the state. “There are thousands of people like me, carrying guns, so them looking for easy targets – that’s all over now. That’s not going to happen anymore,” Black said.



http://fox6now.com/2012/03/25/man-credi ... two-lives/
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:23 am

Zimmerman's lawyer now says it was a case of his client defending himself from an attack and that Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply in this instance. Why? Because the murder victim was standing his ground as he was being pursued by Zimmerman.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby ilikebeans » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:36 am

Peanutbutter wrote:http://fox6now.com/2012/03/25/man-credits-concealed-carry-weapon-for-saving-two-lives/

You "forgot" this little tidbit:

Black says he’s all too aware in a different scenario, pulling out a gun against another gunman could have greatly escalated the violence. “I’m just happy with the way it turned out. I don’t ever want to be in that situation again,” Black said.
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