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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:17 pm

Huckleby wrote:Religous freedom means accomodations for religions.


That they get and no one in government is talking about taking away.

They just don't get every last thing they want.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:31 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: No special favors to just one religion. Otherwise mainstream Mormons would still be allowed to have more than one wife.

That's the black & white thinking at work again. It is possible to make accomodations, a.k.a. "special favors", without going so far as to legalize bigomy.


Or letting Catholic affiliated hospitals make up special rules that no other hospitals can use.

Not making the Church offer insurance that covers things that violate their beliefs for CHURCH employees is the special accommodation. And I'm fine with that.

Heck I've argued the Amish ought to get a special pass on using an orange triangle on their buggies. However I'm not gonna argue that they should get a pass on food safety laws when they sell at the farmers market even if they believe they should. I can give and take a few small things. Just not big special ones like having completely different rules for an organization as large as a hospital or university that no other hospital or organization has.

Let's stop pretending they not getting a shit ton of special accommodations already.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Image
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:59 pm

dave esmond wrote:Or letting Catholic affiliated hospitals make up special rules that no other hospitals can use.

Not making the Church offer insurance that covers things that violate their beliefs for CHURCH employees is the special accommodation. And I'm fine with that.

So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.

This mandate caused a backlash from Catholics, not just the church, across the political spectrum. Presumably, your answer to them is, "tough luck, obey the new law."

I don't agree with your judgement here, it is detatched from political reality, and is insensitive. Your solution was tried and failed spectacularly.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Huckleby wrote:
dave esmond wrote:Or letting Catholic affiliated hospitals make up special rules that no other hospitals can use.

Not making the Church offer insurance that covers things that violate their beliefs for CHURCH employees is the special accommodation. And I'm fine with that.

So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.

This mandate caused a backlash from Catholics, not just the church, across the political spectrum. Presumably, your answer to them is, "tough luck, obey the new law."

I don't agree with your judgement here, it is detatched from political reality, and is insensitive. Your solution was tried and failed spectacularly.

No, Huck, you're the insensitive one. Lay people shouldn't have their health insurance policies subject to mythological beliefs they don't believe in. Hell, even most catholics don't subscribe to those beliefs.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby peripat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:42 pm

And a hospital or other medical service that cannot provide basic health care to women (including birth control and abortions) should not exist.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:49 pm

Huckleby wrote:So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.

Hold on there, Bucko--let's rewind that. Abortion-inducing drugs? So you're saying that contraception=abortion?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:43 pm

Detritus wrote:
Huckleby wrote:So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.

Hold on there, Bucko--let's rewind that. Abortion-inducing drugs? So you're saying that contraception=abortion?


In all fairness, there are drugs (and natural abortifacients) that essentially induce menstruation. If you operate under the assumption that a fertilized egg= a human being, these drugs and other natural products induce abortions. I remember the controversy over RU-486, which I initially thought to be either a nuclear fuel or a submarine piloted by Sean Connery, but was in fact an abortifacient, perhaps the one known as "Plan B from Outerspace."

So yeah, if you consider a mash of cells smaller than your iris to be a human being, contraception could equal abortion.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:57 pm

pjbogart wrote:In all fairness, there are drugs (and natural abortifacients) that essentially induce menstruation. If you operate under the assumption that a fertilized egg= a human being, these drugs and other natural products induce abortions. I remember the controversy over RU-486, which I initially thought to be either a nuclear fuel or a submarine piloted by Sean Connery, but was in fact an abortifacient, perhaps the one known as "Plan B from Outerspace."

So yeah, if you consider a mash of cells smaller than your iris to be a human being, contraception could equal abortion.

In all fairness, that's not what is being discussed, is it? The Catholic Church's position includes condoms, IUDs, and the pill, not of which can even remotely be considered abortifacients--and those (particularly the pill) are the methods under discussion.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:36 am

DCB wrote:
Huckleby wrote:
dave esmond wrote:Or letting Catholic affiliated hospitals make up special rules that no other hospitals can use.

Not making the Church offer insurance that covers things that violate their beliefs for CHURCH employees is the special accommodation. And I'm fine with that.

So you essentially are behind the original mandate, Catholic hospitals must provide abortion-inducing drugs, period.

This mandate caused a backlash from Catholics, not just the church, across the political spectrum. Presumably, your answer to them is, "tough luck, obey the new law."

I don't agree with your judgement here, it is detatched from political reality, and is insensitive. Your solution was tried and failed spectacularly.

No, Huck, you're the insensitive one. Lay people shouldn't have their health insurance policies subject to mythological beliefs they don't believe in. Hell, even most catholics don't subscribe to those beliefs.


Well, yes, that is the other half of the story. This side of the argument is wholey legitimate too. Just because you have a good argument does not mean you should be dismissive and disrespectful of the other side's point of view.

The initial "solution" of just using government power to roll-over the church was dumb and destructive, that was borne out by events. So the "to hell with 'um" philosophy advocated by d.e. was no damn good.

The Obama administration's counter offer was probably about the best that can be done. It satisfied enough people on the Catholic side to make the policy viable. And the gesture of respect, of formal acknowledgement of the Catholic concerns, was key. Ya, the bishops are more pissed than ever, but that's because they want to win outright.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:40 am

peripat wrote:And a hospital or other medical service that cannot provide basic health care to women (including birth control and abortions) should not exist.

You think the feds should force all hospitals to perform abortions!?

That is as extreme as the right wing position demanding prayer in school.

We live in a democracy where people are deeply divided on social issues, you can't just ramrod your way through.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:44 am

Detritus wrote:In all fairness, that's not what is being discussed, is it? The Catholic Church's position includes condoms, IUDs, and the pill, not of which can even remotely be considered abortifacients--and those (particularly the pill) are the methods under discussion.

the abortion-inducing pills are part of the controversy too.

btw, doesn't "induce menstration" really mean "induce miscarriage"?
Never mind, I don't want to know.

I don't think that most Americans equate the morning-after pill with "abortion", but the Catholic Church does. I don't find this postition strange or unreasonable, but it sure causes a world of problems.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:39 am

Huckleby wrote:the abortion-inducing pills are part of the controversy too.

btw, doesn't "induce menstration" really mean "induce miscarriage"?
Never mind, I don't want to know.

I don't think that most Americans equate the morning-after pill with "abortion", but the Catholic Church does. I don't find this postition strange or unreasonable, but it sure causes a world of problems.

Inducing menstruation does NOT mean "inducing miscarriage." Regular birth control pills induce menstruation. If you are thinking of Plan B, no, it does not "induce menstruation" either--it inhibits implantation.

Jesus H, Huck, if you're going to try to defend the Church's position on this stuff, you should at least try to figure out how they work.

But saying "I don't want to know" is an excellent encapsulation of religious belief, so thanks for that.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:14 am

more snark from the peanut gallery.

I am a bit confused about abortofacients, birth control pills and lady parts. Please excuse my honesty.

I don't really care much about how those drugs work, it's not important to the discussion since the Catholic position is based on faith and perception, and I'm not trying to argue that the Catholic positions are correct.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:21 am

Huckleby wrote:more snark from the peanut gallery.

I am a bit confused about abortofacients, birth control pills and lady parts. Please excuse my honesty.

I don't really care much about how those drugs work, it's not important to the discussion since the Catholic position is based on faith and perception, and I'm not trying to argue that the Catholic positions are correct.

OK, I give up. Either you don't actually exist except as an annoying bot (see Serdar Argic) or you are the most fundamentally disingenuous person on Earth. Your choice, and I don't care which you pick.
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