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ALEC thoroughly exposed

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby David Blaska » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:07 pm

Now it's your turn. How will voter I.D. discourage any legitimate voter? There is, after all, something wrong when a country demands that you show proof of insurance (ObamaCare) but not proof of citizenship.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:11 pm

Now it's your turn.


It's still your turn Blaska. You haven't even begun to answer the question. The disenfranchisement of voters has been discussed at length here and everywhere else for months on end. We aren't starting over now because you've had your fingers in your ears the whole time. Your side of this argument however hasn't moved passed the chain email stage of legitimacy.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby wack wack » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:19 pm

David Blaska wrote:Now it's your turn. How will voter I.D. discourage any legitimate voter? There is, after all, something wrong when a country demands that you show proof of insurance (ObamaCare) but not proof of citizenship.


Proof of insurance is not a Constitutional issue. That's the difference. Your right to vote is guaranteed by the Constitution. The idea that one can draw equivalency between the right to vote and ANY other issue where ID verification is required is completely asinine.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:21 pm

David Blaska wrote:The Wall Street Journal opined that same-day registration "helped Democrat Al Franken narrowly win a Senate seat in 2008. Because identification requirements are scant, the law creates different standards at different polling places and is an invitation to fraud."

Nice. You cite an opinion piece from the conservative Wall St. Journal that provides absolutely no proof that voter fraud did, in fact, occur. In addition, it suggests (without any proof) that same-day vote registration put Franken into office, as a nice way to seed conservative minds that that practice should also be abolished.

Weak sauce, even by your standards.

David Blaska wrote:In 2008, a 67-page Milwaukee Police Department Report chronicled potential fraud in the state's tally of voters in the 2004 Presidential election. Questionable voting by absentee ballot, voting by felons and disparities between votes cast and those counted were part of "an illegal organized attempt to influence the outcome of the election," the report noted.

Uh huh. Then in 2010, after the accusation of the police dragging their feet, we hear of the actual number of Milwaukee-area people charged with fraud: FIVE. That's 0.001% of the total 475,192 votes cast in Milwaukee county.

If we look statewide, JB Van Hollen (no liberal, to be sure) brought a total of 11 charges of voter fraud, out of 2.96 million votes cast (0.00037%).

Clearly this is catastrophe! Good thing we're spending in the neighborhood of $2.3 million/year for an unproven fix! What happened to the Republican mantra, "The state is BROKE! BROKE, you hear?!"

David Blaska wrote:I chronicle that here.

You're delusional if you think I'm giving your shitty blog a click.

Voter ID is nothing more than Republicans pulling yet another dirty trick to disenfranchise traditionally Democratic-leaning voters. You know it; I know it; everyone with any sense knows it.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:29 pm

Mr. B, you have repeatedly mentioned felons illegally voting. Tell me how the new voter ID law will prevent that (as opposed to the old rules). Felons who are out of prison, but still on paper (thus ineligible to vote in Wisconsin) can still carry a driver's license.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby David Blaska » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Fisti,, because you disagree with my answer does not mean I have not answered. A key component of an honest polling place is that the voter is who s/he says they are. Why is proper identification more important in a movie rental than a polling place I'll never figure. 30 states require voter I.D. 82% of Americans polled support voter I.D. In Kansas, which just passed Voter I.D., 2/3rds of the Democrats in both houses supported the measure. You can read this, if you want: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576333650886790480.html

As for the constitutional issue, the Constitution does not prohibit reasonable regulation of voting, including registration. Your "voter suppression" fantasies verge on paranoia. The real-life experience is that voter participation after enactment of voter I.D. has increased.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I am unsubscribing as it is fruitless to debate an argument that has already been won.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby wack wack » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:51 pm

David Blaska wrote:Now, if you'll pardon me, I am unsubscribing as it is fruitless to debate an argument that has already been won.


You haven't engaged in argument at all. "Argument" requires reason and facts, you've presented neither. The only reason you're unsubscribing is because you've realized that each subsequent post just makes you look more and more foolish. You're leaving the kitchen because it's too hot for you.

Once again: MATC, Elementary Logic.... take it.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:21 pm

David Blaska wrote:Now... I am unsubscribing

If only once, just once, he would follow through....
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:47 pm

David Blaska wrote:30 states require voter I.D.

Um, no:

According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 11 states, including Wisconsin, request or require photo ID for voters.

David Blaska wrote:82% of Americans polled support voter I.D.

Um, no. According to Rasmussen, it's 75%. Still to your advantage, but once again you've got the numbers wrong.

David Blaska wrote:You can read this, if you want:

Another opinion piece by the Wall St. Journal? No, I do not want.

David Blaska wrote:The real-life experience is that voter participation after enactment of voter I.D. has increased.

[citation needed] The study I found claims exactly the opposite:

A new Brown University study reports that U.S. states that require voters to present identification before casting ballots have lower levels of political participation. The research also indicates that voter I.D. policies discourage legal immigrants from becoming citizens, particularly for blacks and Hispanics, reducing odds of naturalization by more than 15 percent.
...
This data shows that if voter I.D. policies had not been in place in 2004, voter turnout would have increased by more than 1.6 million.

David Blaska wrote:Now, if you'll pardon me, I am unsubscribing as it is fruitless to debate an argument that has already been won.

Ah yes, the typical Blaska cop-out: When you're being proven wrong, retreat to your paid blog soapbox where you can spout "facts" with impunity.

We all know you'll be back.
Last edited by ilikebeans on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby Bert Ernie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:34 pm

I would think anyone reading this thread, regardless of political leaning, would conclude that Dave -- you are getting your a$$ kicked in this debate. Rather than defending indefensible points, why not concede ground when you are wrong and perhaps have your perspective grow? You'd rather put your tail between your legs and whimper home than acknowledge that perhaps (*EGADS*) you too might learn something.

Take your ball and go home if you wish. As good Bugs Bunny says: "You don't need 'forumites" to make you look like a fool."
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:07 pm

Here's one group whose voting participation is going to go way down, and it pisses me off a LOT:

Old people in care facilities.

For the last presidential election, I went through the qualification class and became able to register voters, along with lots of other Madisonians. I went to the care facility where my mother lived (she's since passed away) and registered any of the residents who wanted to register, along with some of the staff.

None of the residents had drivers' licenses, of course. We're talking about people in their 80s and 90s. They were most interested in the election -- everyone in those places follows the news on TV, some quite obsessively. Later I helped a number of them to vote (some couldn't see well enough, or had other difficulties) and I can tell you there were both Democratic and Republican voters among them.

None of these people could vote now. Most of them were very fragile and could not have gone to DMV for a card (even with a driver, and many don't have family in town to drive them and wait). Some had too many medical issues, some were just not strong enough to spend half a day that way, and some probably couldn't have located the necessary documentation although they were born and raised in Dane County. People at this point in life tend to stay right in their facility unless they have an emergency.

For every care facility like this, you're going to have about 75-80% of the residents unable to vote in the next election cycle, and for no good reason whatsoever. Some will be very upset, too -- these are good old WWII-era folks who take their votes seriously.

It makes me so made to explain this I can hardly see.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby DCB » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:None of these people could vote now. Most of them were very fragile and could not have gone to DMV for a card (even with a driver, and many don't have family in town to drive them and wait).
.... People at this point in life tend to stay right in their facility unless they have an emergency.

So, they're probably not out shopping a lot, am I correct?
That's strike two. You need to have enough bank activity to get a Voter ID.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/2 ... ia=siderec

but as Colbert notes, these laws are to ensure that the "right people" are voting.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:15 pm

Major business groups weighed in. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce urged support of Boehner's bill, while the conservative Club for Growth denounced it as too weak.


from
http://host.madison.com/news/national/g ... bb293.html

(Bolded by me.)

The article is more Washington same-old same-old about the debt ceiling, but buried almost halfway down is the quote shown.

I don't get it. Just about the time I think I'm getting a handle on the Kochian view of reality, they manage to prove once again I'm clueless. Why in the world would a couple big industrialists want to push the national economy over the edge? Then who's going to buy all their coal?
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby Donald » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:45 pm

There's plenty of money to be made in a crash. I'm sure the Tea Party millionaires have taken or will shortly take short positions on everything except gold. I've been considering buying into ETFs that shorts various US stock market indices. I got out of most of my long positions last week. Even with earnings up, there's just way too much uncertainty about the craziness of the Blaska wing of the Republican cult.
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Re: ALEC thoroughly exposed

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:36 am

Wow, Donald, that's likely the most depressing post you've ever written.
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