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"Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby zippy » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:38 am

Tiggs wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The problem is that the Republicans are ferociously opposed to the establishment of health care as a right.

Yup, those evil republicans. They prevented the democrats from passing their socialized medicine bill...even when the democrats had a filibuster proof majority--thus, the repubs could do nothing but watch.
Bad bad republicans.....

I hate to agree with you but its true. The democrats act as if they actually have to have 60 frigging votes to get ANYTHING DONE.
The republicans pushed thru tons of stuff with only 51 votes.
So they threaten to fillibuster. Make em actually stand up there in chambers with a pee bucket and talk all night and see how fast that would stop. The democrats are the Washington Generals. They take a dive every time. The diebold machines only come up with good numbers for them when the corporate fat cats have a mission for them. Last time with Clinton it was Nafta WTF, and welfare "reform". Things only a democrat could pull off. This time it is Obama's job to go after Social Security Medicare and Medicaid.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:53 am

Huckleby wrote:The problem is that the Republicans are ferociously opposed to the establishment of health care as a right.


Ah ah ah, no no no - not opposed to health care as a right; opposed to health care as a mandate. A mandate means you don't have the right to refuse it; that is a loss of rights. And not just Republicans: Americans all over the country oppose the mandate by 2:1. When it comes to the electorate, lots of blue collar Democrats don't like it either.

Huckleby wrote:Jobs were addressed by the stimulus package. What more realistically can the federal government do?


With $787 billion dollars? A hell of a lot. "Can" is the key word here. How many "jobs" did it create in Wisconsin? Zero. A five billion dollar spending spree amid a $62 billion dollar spending spree is what we got here in Wisconsin - look around, who's benefiting? Not your friends and neighbors. The "stimulus" was just the first look into how crooked establishment Dems are when it comes to words vs. actions. Simply printing up "$787" billion dollars and leaving it in a giant pile on the street would've done wonders compared to congressional efforts in 2009.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:32 pm

zippy wrote: The democrats act as if they actually have to have 60 frigging votes to get ANYTHING DONE.
The republicans pushed thru tons of stuff with only 51 votes.
So they threaten to fillibuster. Make em actually stand up there in chambers with a pee bucket and talk all night and see how fast that would stop.


The Dems could do some specific things through reconciliation, for instance expand Medicare. Maybe they should. They can't deal with insurance reform. I don't think reconciliation works for health care reform, either technically or politically.

Forcing the Republicans to fillibuster is a good idea, certainly at this point it might be the best option. Governor Redell of Penn. was on the radio pushing for this.

The underlying problem for the Dems is not procedure. IT's the politics. When Bush pushed tax cuts through reconciliation, he wasn't facing a widespread public rebellion against it.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:48 pm

Cortez wrote: Ah ah ah, no no no - not opposed to health care as a right; opposed to health care as a mandate. A mandate means you don't have the right to refuse it; that is a loss of rights.

There are only two ways to implement health care as a right: a mandate, or a government takeover of insurance. You say you are not opposed to universal health care: which path do you support to get there?
The people of Massachusetts have a high satisfaction level with their mandate system.


Cortez wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Jobs were addressed by the stimulus package. What more realistically can the federal government do?

With $787 billion dollars? A hell of a lot. "Can" is the key word here. How many "jobs" did it create in Wisconsin? Zero.

A third of the stimulus was tax cuts. We're told that tax cuts stimulate jobs.
Another third was money sent to states to prevent widespread layoffs of local government employees. Even if this money didn't create jobs in WI, it likely prevented the loss of jobs for teachers, police, DMV employees, etc.
The final third of the spending was on projects by private contractors. Rebuilding bridges, etc. The main criticism I've heard is that too little was spent in this area.

I don't believe you know whether any of these three parts of the stimulus did or did not save jobs in WI. I would be curious about which of the three parts of the stimulus you would like to see more or less money spent on.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:54 pm

For those of you that don't care about the health care reform because it lacks a Public Option, you have to carefully define what you want from a public option.
1) Should all Americans be eligible to choose it?
2) Would the public option negotiate payment rates like other insurance plans, or would it set payment rates like Medicare?

When you think through these questions, and get some more info from health care experts, you come to the conclusion that the public option will either be of small benefit, or it will be so radical that it will have no chance politically. You won't get 25 votes for a strong public option in the SEnate.

If what you really want is single payer, you have to fight for it politically. The idea that you would sneak it through with a trojan horse was a mirage.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Peanutbutter » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:09 pm

Huckleby wrote:There are only two ways to implement health care as a right: a mandate, or a government takeover


Is that true with all rights?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:43 pm

Peanutbutter wrote: Is that true with all rights?

I guess your point is that health care should not be considered a right, since it involves the delivery of a product/service.

Establishing health care as a right is a choice that a society makes for practical and moral purposes. Like the right to a high school education.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Cortez » Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:49 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Cortez wrote: Ah ah ah, no no no - not opposed to health care as a right; opposed to health care as a mandate. A mandate means you don't have the right to refuse it; that is a loss of rights.

There are only two ways to implement health care as a right: a mandate, or a government takeover of insurance. You say you are not opposed to universal health care: which path do you support to get there?


False choice: "a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options." When you're proposing to spend hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars, "other options" is a grand understatement. You could make the entire health infrastructure obsolete with the right kind of planning. There are hundreds of smart options available, very viable options. Plans could be put forth and service models constructed, implemented in target cities and expanded gradually - perfected on a small scale and phased in over time.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Tiggs » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:39 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:The whole health care issue proves how "anti-Christian" America actually is.

I find it always amusing--OK, not very, sort of like a fly trying to get thru glass--when liberal/progressives bring up Christianity as a reason their socialist views should be "normal".

Single payer would save $400 billion a year and insure everyone, with most people getting better coverage than under private insurers.

That's quite a leap in logic. Where else had government monopoly/control saved money?

Once it gets this twisted, it's hard to have a real discussion.

Or meaningless, vague generalities....

So, tell ya what--I'll support government health care if you support US actually having borders and enforcing them, not to mention kicking out all illegals whenever encountered.

Deal?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Tiggs » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:04 pm

Huckleby wrote:You say the bill is socialized medicine. The left wing says it was a corporate give-away.

Forced collecting/confiscation of money from "the masses" IS socialism. The liberal/progressives will always look at "corporations" as some evil thing and will always be their pinyata.

The Repubicans did a good job of drumming-up fear. The Democrats did not have 60 votes for reform in the Senate.

So even when the democrats themselves didn't buy into obama/pelosi care, it's still the republicans fault? Is this your way of saying democrats are spineless and stupid and must be told how to vote?
libral/progressive dem Coakley (MA) was FOR peloi/obamacare.
Brown was on record over and over as being against it.
Overwhelming democrat MA voted brown in.

You can't get a really good health care bill with just Democrats

Why not? they had a filibuster proof majority?
The had the power of the Bully Teleprompter reading speeches three times a week.
They had all the mainstream "gnus" and 60 minutes of BS backing pelosi/obamacare.

Could it be that most Americans are satisfied with their healthcare? And just think how much their premiums would go down if we actually stopped letting in anyone and everyone into this country for free health care...which the bill is spread out on everyone's premiums.

And more importantly, real reform requires some politically difficult choices, like taxing health care benefits.

Didn't president barry soetoro/obama bust mccain's chops for stating that? Or creating that? Not sure but it rings a bell.
President barry would like to tax (look at it as a 'fine') people's private health care insurance as a way to force them into government pelosi/obamacare.

Better question is: why does president barry exempt unions "cadillac plans" from fines for having them. Doesn't he want the union thugs to be in that fine thing called socialized pelosi/obamacare?

Or it yet another one of his cons......
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby David Blaska » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:18 pm

Huckleby wrote:The problem is that the Republicans are ferociously opposed to the establishment of health care as a right.


Where is it written in the U.S. Constitution that the government guarantees to fix your owie?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby gargantua » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:34 pm

David Blaska wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The problem is that the Republicans are ferociously opposed to the establishment of health care as a right.


Where is it written in the U.S. Constitution that the government guarantees to fix your owie?


Oh, David, where is your reading comprehension? He said "establishment of health care as a right...". If it was already in the Constitution, it would logically not need establishing, would it?

Since you brought up the Constitution, where does it say people are entitled to Social Security? By your logic, if it doesn't, it ought to be abolished.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:39 pm

David Blaska wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The problem is that the Republicans are ferociously opposed to the establishment of health care as a right.


Where is it written in the U.S. Constitution that the government guarantees to fix your owie?

Does that mean you are also opposed to constitutional protection for the right of privacy?
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Cortez wrote: You could make the entire health infrastructure obsolete with the right kind of planning. There are hundreds of smart options available, very viable options. Plans could be put forth and service models constructed, implemented in target cities and expanded gradually - perfected on a small scale and phased in over time.

It sounds like you are referring to reforms for how medicine is practiced. You are describing ways to get better value out of our health care dollar. This will ultimately be the most impotant part of reform, but it doesn't address the uninsured or people with pre-existing conditions. (BTW, the health care bill makes a start on reforming the delivery system with a number of pilot progrms.)

Cost control alone isn't going to make health insurance affordable for all. If you want private insurers to accept people with pre-existing conditions, you need a mandate. Plus poorer people will need subsidies.
The other option is for a government insurance plan like medicare.
I don't see any other way to achieve universal health care.
Last edited by Huckleby on Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" or Health care. What's a Dem to do?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:56 pm

C'mon Huck there are hundreds of better options just like Cortez says. There's vouchers, health savings accounts, more vouchers, some Tort reform, did I mention vouchers? Fox News tells me the Democrats just don't want to do those things because they hate me because I'm a conservative. They also hate freedom. Nothing gets their blood boiling like someone enjoying freedom. Why else would they have shot at all those hippies? Let's face it. The only way to fix this country is to do exactly what a former morning radio shock jock turned crying Mormon tells us to do. It's our only "Hope". hehe get it? Pelosi. ACORN.
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