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Free the Herb, it's superb.

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

What is the answer to our Drug (War) woes?

Legalize Maryjane, Herb, Pot, Boo, Grass, Dank?
26
87%
Lock up hop-heads for many months or even years?
4
13%
 
Total votes : 30

tobacco vs. the weed

Postby gozer » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:06 pm

PurplePenquin wrote:
naked pagan wrote:
Lets look at tabacco...its a plant that grows and supports certain sectors of our economy, but it produces a dangerous addictive drug that is responsible for the painful deaths of millions of people.

This is not to say marijuana is more or less safer than tabacoo, Im just saying the 'its all natural so its safe' line is bullshit.



What's bullshit is trying to claim I said "its all natural so its safe", 'cause I never said that. I'm merely pointing out that it's an all natural-plant, and if someone wants to see another person locked up for having an all-natural plant then they must be insane, ignorant and/or evil.


For the record, tobacco isn't responsible for the deaths of anybody...last I checked, people have to actually pick up a cig and smoke it in order for it to cause any harm. That plant doesn't just sit there quietly waiting to kill people.

However, you raise an interesting point...Do you think we should ban tobacco and treat smokers like we've been treating tokers?


there is a precedent from which we can gather insight:

it has been done before in the united states -- we are talking about state bans on tobacco that were in the same chronological span as prohibition, the harrison narcotic control & tax act of 1914 and its forerunners like the 1909 ban on smoking-opium, and the outlawing of diamorphine (h, horse, scag, gear, brownstone, smack) in 1924.

for full disclosure, my opinion on tobacco is as follows:

pharmacologically, i can't think of another substance -- even jimsonweed's cocktail of atropine and hyoscine and allied substances -- which is as toxic as tobacco and which addicts people when generating as little real chemical pleasure. m.j., coca, opium, benzodiazepines, synthetic opiates like methadone, dextromoramide, ketobemidone, and pethidine, there's no comparison. not even barbiturates and amphetamines, the very model of toxic pharmaceuticals, really compare.

i was a chemical-effect smoker on and off for years for the superior stimulation to caffeine, but just decided to quit one morning because i knew exactly what it was doing to every organ in my body and damn the withdrawal. in my opinion, for those having more trouble with it, a two-week course of extended-release morphine would smooth out nicotine withdrawal the best with the lowest recidivism rate. europeans and australians with problems with nausea from the big m could substitute dextromoramide.

seems that they felt the tobacco bans were as effective as was prohibition. the history of narcotics is so much more obscured with propaganda and bull-shit that it deserves a separate article which i may do later today or next week.
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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:26 pm

PurplePenquin wrote:What's bullshit is trying to claim I said "its all natural so its safe", 'cause I never said that. I'm merely pointing out that it's an all natural-plant, and if someone wants to see another person locked up for having an all-natural plant then they must be insane, ignorant and/or evil.


Hmmm...
So you admit that "natural" does not equal "safe", which is good, cuz that's true. So how do you justify that because it's "an all natural plant" it shouldn't be a jailable offense to be in possession of it? I mean, anthrax is "all natural", too - should we not be concerned if someone is in possession of it?
Furthermore, there are lots of valid reasons for banning a plant and lots of perfectly innocent examples of the government doing so. I mean, this is America, so how come you can't take a cooler full of fruit into Hawaii? And why can't I pick flowers and bring them home from Lake Tahoe? It's not limited to America, either - just today, laws went into effect in Australia banning a number of species of invasive aquatic plants:
http://www.news-mail.com.au/news/0803/180803_5.html
I assume you are outraged by this!

PP - I'm with ya, pot should be legalized, but it has nothing to be with it being "natural" or because it's a plant. This seemingly reasonable conclusion leads me to an obvious question posed by your post: am I insane, ignorant or evil?
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Postby pjbogart » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:29 pm

You're all three, wags.
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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:17 pm

pjbogart wrote:You're all three, wags.

I figured as much, but need to be reassured once in a while.
Thanks, pj!
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Postby blunt » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:54 pm

Death is natural.

But I shake my head in general disbelief when I hear about pot being "laced" with other drugs.
Unless it's inctredibly lame dirt weed, no self-respecting dealer is going to waste good money on ADDING drugs to pot!!!

Also: no one has to buy pot from Columbia.
Try the coke---I hear it's good.
Why not buy pot from WISCONSIN?

And regulation...hmmm, okay. Like beer.
Don't drive drunk or high.
But once your're of age you should be able to walk into a joint and have a joint.
I don't like seeing little kids doing drugs.
Little kids are stupid enough.
First get a brain---then fuck it up.
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Postby pjbogart » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:56 pm

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the legalization of marijuana... I went through a phase in college... peaking, ironically, while I was in Law School and quite frankly it's just not that important to me. What I find disturbing is people whose political beliefs seem to revolve around the legalization of marijuana.

I agree that the "War on Drugs" is a miserable failure and undoubtedly our tax money would be better spent on treatment rather than incarceration (though I don't know too many people who go to treatment for marijuana addiction). Pot may very well be psychologically addictive, but speaking from experience, I never felt any physiological withdrawal when I quit smoking. It seems like cigarettes and alcohol are far more dangerous.

My biggest gripe about the "legalize pot" crowd is that the arguments are specious more often than not. "Dude, this hemp shirt is the most comfortable shirt I own!" Uh, yeah. "How can a plant be illegal?" Uh, lots of plants are illegal. "If I had chronic pain, I'd rather have a hit than some dangerous painkillers." Yeah, but you don't suffer from chronic pain, do you?

I would guess that pot will be legal within 15-20 years, but there is still a sizable portion of the population that have an irrational alarmist attitude toward it. Talk to them about the amount of cash we're wasting locking up drug users, sellers, couriers... don't waste your time talking about the plethora of products you can produce with hemp. YOU know and I know that hemp shirts are not your real aim and people don't appreciate dishonesty. Add to that the fact that few people, if any, really fall for the "hemp products" argument.

If I ever see it on a ballot, you guys have my vote. Personally, I think there are more pressing issues facing America.
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Postby blunt » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:00 pm

pjbogart wrote:I
My biggest gripe about the "legalize pot" crowd is that the arguments are specious more often than not. "Dude, this hemp shirt is the most comfortable shirt I own!" Uh, yeah. "How can a plant be illegal?" Uh, lots of plants are illegal. "If I had chronic pain, I'd rather have a hit than some dangerous painkillers." Yeah, but you don't suffer from chronic pain, do you?

YOU know and I know that hemp shirts are not your real aim and people don't appreciate dishonesty. Add to that the fact that few people, if any, really fall for the "hemp products" argument.
.


I have no use for hemp shirts or rope.
I just want to get high.
And pot is not a substitute for narcotic pain relievers.
Give me both, please.
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Postby Celtic Bhoy » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:25 pm

Yeah! What Blunt said.
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Postby purplepenquin » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:39 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: I mean, anthrax is "all natural", too - should we not be concerned if someone is in possession of it?


From what I understood, it took some sort of chemical process to extract anthrax and that it didn't grow on it's own that way.

I'll have to look into a tad more, but you have given me food-for-thought. Thank you...

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Furthermore, there are lots of valid reasons for banning a plant and lots of perfectly innocent examples of the government doing so. I mean, this is America, so how come you can't take a cooler full of fruit into Hawaii? And why can't I pick flowers and bring them home from Lake Tahoe?


There's a world of difference between protecting wildlife from being "picked out" and protecting a cash-crop from outside invasions...and totally outlawing a plant. Not letting someone take a bag of oranges into Lake Tahoe is vastly different from arresting someone for having an illegal garden in their backyard.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: PP - I'm with ya, pot should be legalized, but it has nothing to be with it being "natural" or because it's a plant. This seemingly reasonable conclusion leads me to an obvious question posed by your post: am I insane, ignorant or evil?


Depends...tell me again why you think someone who has an all-natural plant should be put in a cage, and I'll tell ya which of those three ya are ;)

Seriousily...perhaps I should re-phrase my statement. Anyone who thinks an adult should be punished for having/using marijuana is insane, ignorant and/or evil.

that better?

pjbogart wrote: YOU know and I know that hemp shirts are not your real aim and people don't appreciate dishonesty.


Actually, the hemp issue is a big reason I want to see marijauna re-legalized. True, while a lot of it has to do with the issue of who gets to decide what you put into your own body (you or the gov't?) it doesn't mean that hemp issue isn't valid....not only would we have those shirts you mentioned, but we would no longer have a need for fossil fuels.

While I understand that it's a small/non-issue to you, I personally think that not having to rely on the Middle East for oil to be a BIG issue...not to mention that whole "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" thing.

pjbogart wrote: If I ever see it on a ballot, you guys have my vote.


It's on the ballot almost everytime you go to the polling station. Of course since most Dems and Repubs seem to agree that the War on Marijauna is a good thing and should be continued, it's easy to miss...
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Postby white_rabbit » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:39 pm

This country needs to take a deep look at the way we approach drug/alcohol use and abuse. I am really disturbed at the way the court system either relies upon jails or 12-step programs to address the situation. The first step should be to try and take the jails out of the equation with decriminalization of consumption with reasonable and appropriate penalties for abuse and abusing privilege (i.e. driving intoxicated). Note: decriminalization is not the same as legalization, but usually has the de facto effect of legalization, such as in Canada.

The second step would be to stop buying into the big lie that 12-step programs are the only solution for abuse and addiction. If someone is successful in a 12-step program, good for them. But AA/NA doesn�t work for many people who really don�t want to buy into religious based dogma. A lot of hard scientific studies are starting to build a substantial body of evidence that 12-step programs provide no better results than spontaneous recovery, and in many studies actually do more harm than good. Programs based on sound psychological theory, such as smart recovery (based on cognitive/rational emotive behavioral therapy as pioneered by Albert Ellis) are showing much higher recovery rates than AA and NA. If a person has abused the privilege to responsibly use drugs they should be routed into a treatment course of action, but one that works for that individual. The success rates will be much higher than relying upon 12-steps only with the threat of jail.

Removing drug users from the criminal justice system and from incarceration will amount in a tremendous reduction in costs to the taxpayers. Many incarcerated drug users were functional members of society prior to them becoming charged with possession, but just unlucky enough to get caught. Once that person enters into the criminal justice system the potential for being a productive member of society greatly diminishes.


http://www.aadeprogramming.com/index_frames.html
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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:13 am

PurplePenquin wrote: From what I understood, it took some sort of chemical process to extract anthrax and that it didn't grow on it's own that way.

Doncha remember the Castle Anthrax from Monty Python? Anthrax has been around for a loooooooong time. Please enjoy Anthrax Through The Ages courtesy of CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditio ... .timeline/

PurplePenquin wrote: Not letting someone take a bag of oranges into Lake Tahoe is vastly different from arresting someone for having an illegal garden in their backyard.

True, but try smuggling a shit-ton of seeds into Hawaii and see how quickly you end up in prison.

PurplePenquin wrote: tell me again why you think someone who has an all-natural plant should be put in a cage

You know you're putting words in my mouth here. I totally agree that pot should be legal, I just don't think your bold statement about plants has much to do with why.

PurplePenquin wrote: Anyone who thinks an adult should be punished for having/using marijuana is insane, ignorant and/or evil.
that better?

Much. I agree with that statement.

PurplePenquin wrote: not only would we have those shirts you mentioned, but we would no longer have a need for fossil fuels.

OK, see this is just hippie Utopian la-la-land talk (not about the shirts.) It's great to be for the legalization of pot/hemp. It's great to be for alternative fuel sources. However, the two have not one iota to do with each other. I agree with pj about so many of these arguments being specious - you do neither of these causes any good when you make BS your main selling point. Hemp would be a great cash-crop with a plethora of beneficial industrial and commercial uses, but it ain't gonna power the world. It just ain't.
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:31 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Hemp would be a great cash-crop with a plethora of beneficial industrial and commercial uses, but it ain't gonna power the world. It just ain't.

Maybe not. But it just might power the next-generation Wagsmobile:

http://www.hempcar.org/ford.shtml

Ford recognized the utility of the hemp plant. He constructed a car of resin stiffened hemp fiber, and even ran the car on ethanol made from hemp. Ford knew that hemp could produce vast economic resources if widely cultivated.

Dude could also do a gravity bong like nobody's bidness. True story.
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Postby pjbogart » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:03 am

Bah! Even the intelligent crowd on the Daily Page gets sucked into the quagmire. Whatever industrial use we may have for hemp, it has nothing to do with why people are fighting to have it legalized. Even if you can point out some scientist that DOES genuinely believe that there are some great industrial uses and even if there ARE some great industrial uses, that's not where the base of support for the "legalize pot" movement lies. You want to get high and there's nothing wrong with that! The real problem is that you turn off your opponent (not me) with these specious arguments. No one really believes that you're fighting for hemp cars and shirts, they KNOW that you want to get high and the fact that you mask your purposes makes your opponent mistrust you.

Lose the facade... spend some time talking about the billions of wasted tax dollars we spend incarcerating non-violent drug users and sellers. People can comprehend that argument. Every time you bring up hemp cars or the like, people tune you out.
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:50 am

Oh, can it already, PJ. What the hell does my support for industrial hemp production have to do with any desire to get high? Ever tried to smoke ditch weed? 'Cause that's what we're talking about when we debate hemp production. I can buy any number of OTC medications and adhesives at the nearest drug store that'll get you way more buzzed than anything you can pick off a hemp plant.

Now if you wanna take on the medical mary jane crowd, that may be another thing. Just make sure you know what you're rallying against when you go on your "oh, you're just a stoner" crusade and start questioning others' convictions.
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Postby pjbogart » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:02 am

Chuck... I support the legalization of marijuana... I just think the argument lines aren't doing anything to convince the bulk of the electorate.
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