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Recognizing the notion of "other"

If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it fits here

Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby pjbogart » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:49 pm

Detritus wrote:You're an idiot, and that's all there is to it. You claim to have spent years living and working in poor neighborhoods, and your older sister taught in inner-city schools in Milwaukee, and yet all you can say is "pull your pants up, dammit?" That's not liberal, nor is it conservative. It's full-on stupid and nothing more.


I was originally responding to the video posted by Howler, assuming you watched it. In it, a nun stands there and tells a group of students that none of their problems in life mean shit, because only black people really have problems. If you look like a lesbian and people discriminate against you, it's your own fault. You should change your clothes and the way you style your hair.

While I generally agree with the assessment that African Americans have a harder time dealing with discrimination, largely because they can't simply "quit being black", I had two problems with her exercise. First off, people are naturally going to focus upon their own problems before worrying about other people's problems, so demeaning one person's plight by pointing out that "at least you're not black" is completely ridiculous. So I guess if someone gets fired from their job for being gay, they have only themselves to blame. They walked funny, talked funny and dressed funny. Next time, try to be less gay. And who would know more about such bigotry than a representative of the Roman Catholic Church, right?

Secondly, there seems to be an underlying insinuation that discrimination is based solely upon racism, and I think that's bullshit too. I used the example of kids with their pants around their knees because I think it's overt and common, so everyone recognizes what I'm talking about. If you walk into a business, ask for an application and don't have the common sense to pull up your pants, don't come crying about racism. You may very well have been discriminated against, but "shitheads who can't pull up their pants" is not a protected class under the Constitution.

There are a lot of African Americans who are discriminated against based upon cultural idiosyncrasies, which may or may not be unfair stereotypes, but the point is that if you're going to blame a lesbian for being too manly, you ought to be able to blame a black guy for being too thugly. He doesn't have to walk around with his underwear hanging out, he chooses to.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:01 pm

1. I pointed to something uncomfortable.
2. The only participant here who has provided objective evidence that he/she looked at it all is PJ.
3. Predictably, what I consider rightish lurkers seek to direct ridicule to PJ's; stern, direct, and honest take. Keep in mind that I do not see racism in PJ's remarks, just that age old balance of practicality versus becoming comfortable with "others".
4. If you bother to think about it. Isn't a good deal of discourse today framed around the notion of the other? How is that helpful?

MH
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Sandi » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:33 pm

Good discussion, and I pretty much agree with pj.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:07 pm

Detritus wrote:I think my summary was closer to the mark. And I was going to try to go through your screed point-by-point but then I decided fuck it. You're an idiot, and that's all there is to it.


Dear Trite,
I missed your "summary". I am sorry that this bothers you. Here is a tip. When something does not feel right, it probably is not.
MH
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby city2countrygal » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:41 pm

So MH chided me into watching the clip. What Sister Elliot said at 11:50 gave me déjà vu a little bit:

Why is my pointing out our differences being 'defensive'? I could repost what I just wrote above and you still don’t get it. The meaning is not found in the interpretation; it’s found in accepting the Other’s interpretation and moving forward from a common place of relation. I think you were trying to do that, but missed the mark. And back to Montaigne: 'The greater part of the world's troubles are due to questions of grammar.'"

Recognize that PJ?

Hint: It’s from just over a year ago, before I asked you to read the DeLilo short story. Don't make me quote myself, you know I hate doin it.

Game

Check

Your move, buddy
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Ducatista » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:39 am

OK, Howler, I'll play. I watched the clip, from the beginning rather than from 3:40 as the link would prefer.

Chris Rock accomplishes in a few funny/painful seconds what Jane Elliott fails to accomplish in 14 minutes of colorless (oh the irony) flogging: "There ain't a white man in this room who'd change places with me. None of ya! And I'm rich!"

It's troubling that Elliott acknowledges that gender is our primary identifier, but only as a tool to illustrate her racial point. Whoa, whoa, back up, sister. You just relegated A Really Big Thing to stage-prop status because it's not your thing. F.

Elliott ruins a legitimate message with Toastmasters delivery and ridiculous oversimplification. "Hey, young lesbian. You could hide the socially unacceptable parts of yourself by dressing/acting straight, so quit whining." What a load of crap. You think kids aren't capable of more complex reasoning than that?

Nothing awe-inspiring about Elliott's spiel in my book.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby pjbogart » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:05 am

city2countrygal wrote:Recognize that PJ?

Hint: It’s from just over a year ago, before I asked you to read the DeLilo short story. Don't make me quote myself, you know I hate doin it.

Game

Check

Your move, buddy


Did you just ask me a question in the form of a riddle? Could you perhaps rephrase it in iambic pentameter for me? Or how about a cryptogram so I can sit and play with it for a few hours to figure out where all the t's and e's are?
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby city2countrygal » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:05 am

pjbogart wrote:Could you perhaps rephrase it [. . .]"

¡Maldición! ¿PJ no comprende?

How’s about dis?

Societal norms my ass.

And you didn't say please.

Ring a bell [or bells]?
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Detritus » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:45 am

Mad Howler wrote:
Detritus wrote:I think my summary was closer to the mark. And I was going to try to go through your screed point-by-point but then I decided fuck it. You're an idiot, and that's all there is to it.


Dear Trite,
I missed your "summary". I am sorry that this bothers you. Here is a tip. When something does not feel right, it probably is not.
MH

I'm sorry, was the phrase "Lemme see if I can summarize your comment" too subtle for you? Here is a tip: a phrase like "Lemme see if I can summarize your comment" generally indicates that what follows is a summary. Not always, but often enough to be a reliable guide.

That doesn't bother me. But assuming that, by "this" you meant "proud ignorance of the roots, depth, spread, and persistence of social injustice," then yes, you are right: that does bother me. If it didn't bother me, then I would take it as a sign that my time on earth was up.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Detritus wrote:I'm sorry, was the phrase "Lemme see if I can summarize your comment" too subtle for you?

That was directed at Peej, come on!

Let me "summarize" why "I" thought it important to put this out to people who bother to spend time here.

1) I came across something that was uncomfortable.
2) It was NOT all about sister Elliot. It was what mostly what De Vega had to say, thanks PJ for commenting on this.
3) What struck me about the bit with Sister Elliot was that it reminded me that the catholic church of my past had a stern interest in social justice, as nun'y as it might be.
4) I often relate things I find painful here in a vague way with the hope hope others will pick it up. The results of this approach to the hive have been mixed. I think I should re-work this approach.

MH
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby kurt_w » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:18 pm

Mad Howler wrote:
Detritus wrote:I'm sorry, was the phrase "Lemme see if I can summarize your comment" too subtle for you?

That was directed at Peej, come on!

What was directed at PJ? Your comment of 11:07pm on Tuesday? I don't think anyone outside your own head could possibly interpret that comment as being "directed at PJ".

Mad Howler wrote:4) I often relate things I find painful here in a vague way with the hope hope others will pick it up. The results of this approach to the hive have been mixed. I think I should re-work this approach.

Maybe consider aiming for clarity in your writing, rather than vagueness.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:56 pm

kurt_w wrote:What was directed at PJ? Your comment of 11:07pm on Tuesday? I don't think anyone outside your own head could possibly interpret that comment as being "directed at PJ".

11:51am Tuesday.

kurt_w wrote:Maybe consider aiming for clarity in your writing, rather than vagueness.

Duly noted.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:25 am

Mad Howler, if you start a thread and only read comments "directed" at you, you're going to miss a lot of the conversation.

I hope that by "directing" this comment at you, it'll make it through your filter. I strongly recommend writing for reader comprehension and inclusion. Nothing but vague half-references, airy allusions, winks, and nudges most often annoy the reader and at best start the conversation off on the wrong foot.

Like I've said before, unless you're a shift worker who is only awake from 9pm to 8am, try writing during the light of day, not from 11pm to 1am. Do it over a cup of your favorite non-alcoholic beverage.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby snoqueen » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:19 am

Oh, come on. I've done some of my best writing in the wee small hours, and I was even sober. Some of us are more diurnal than others.

But I can't make a lot of sense out of what MH writes, and even less out of city-2, whom I have mentally put on permanent ignore. I don't think the hour at which they post is the problem.

I suggest 1) thinking out what you have to say; 2) stating it in declarative sentences; and 3) re-reading what you wrote, then possibly making clarifications before posting it. Put another way, your readers have no way to know what you had in mind when you wrote unless you tell them.
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Re: Recognizing the notion of "other"

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:33 am

snoqueen wrote:Oh, come on. I've done some of my best writing in the wee small hours, and I was even sober. Some of us are more diurnal than others.

I don't disagree, but I think MH needs all the help he (she?) can get.
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