[Uncle_Leaver]

Bullshit. If I want to consider my dog my "baby" (which I do...so's my cat), then I'll damned well do it.

Bully for you. Call your pets what you want. There's no crime in sounding goofy. Just don't try to tell me that your responsibilities are even close to the equivalent of raising a child. They're not.

Look, I love my dog. She's very much a part of the family. She's also a part of the family I know is not going to be around forever. And while I'll be terribly sad when the day comes that we take that final trip to the vet, I'll get over it. See where I'm going here?

A pet requires neither the level of personal commitment nor the same emotional investment a child does. That's my only point.

Anyone who has both pets and kids who wants to take issue with me on this, I'm all ears. The childless among you don't really have a basis for debating this one, so y'all can stuff this pseudo parenting silliness.

[feh23]

Look, I love my dog. She's very much a part of the family. She's also a part of the family I know is not going to be around forever. And while I'll be terribly sad when the day comes that we take that final trip to the vet, I'll get over it. See where I'm going here?

I'll be the jerk...even the human members of your family won't be around forever. One might consider themselves lucky (or unlucky) to never be in the position to accompany them on that "final trip to the vet"...depending on how that trip goes when dealing with the other humans involved. Many people do feel a sense of loss for quite a while after losing a beloved pet. Maybe they don't weep and morn publicly, maybe they don't have giant funerals, maybe they don't get time off work or sympathy cards but you'd be wrong to think that people, even ones with children, don't miss the pets they've lost simply because they're animals. So no, I guess I don't see where you're going.

[Uncle_Leaver]

Many people, childed and not, do feel a sense of loss for quite a while after losing a beloved pet.

Yeah, I've been there. Why does suggesting that raising a dog is not nearly as challenging as raising a child cast me in the Cruella DeVille part, for shit's sake? Are you people for real?

Maybe they don't weep and morn publicly, maybe they don't have giant funerals, maybe they don't get time off work, but you'd be wrong to think that people don't miss the pets they've lost simply because they're owned animals. So no, I guess I don't see where you're going.

Do you have children? I don't know about you, but I hope mine outlive me. Or are you honestly suggesting that losing a child is no more traumatic than losing a dog?

Of course people mourn the loss of their pets. Did I not just say I'd be terribly upset to lose my dog? Are you people reading my fucking posts here or is this some sort of bug-up-the-ass for the bug's sake game?

I think the forum is overdue for its seasonal stupid shot. We can apparently agree that caring for a cat is less work than caring for a dog. We apparently can't come to the same consensus that raising a dog is less work than raising a child. Either you're all fucking nuts or I am.

[TheBookPolice]

We can apparently agree that caring for a cat is less work than caring for a dog. We apparently can't come to the same consensus that raising a dog is less work than raising a child.

I think there's only one person who even came close to making that assertion:

I just don't want the OP to be naive about the commitment. A dog is not a fish, a dog is not a cat. With some breeds, it's more comparable to having a kid.

Everyone else has taken exception to your subsequent statements:

You dog is not your "baby."

Bullshit. If I want to consider my dog my "baby" (which I do...so's my cat), then I'll damned well do it.

In other words, referring to one's pet as one's "baby" does not mean that person is equating the time, cost, effort, or seriousness of raising a pet with that of raising a child. Just that some people like to refer to their pets as their "babies." Some people do it with irony, others less so. But AaronTheSnob wasn't--by my understanding--equating pet-rearing and child-rearing, just defending the use of the term "baby" by those folks whose nurturing instincts are aimed at targets more furry and less primate.

Or:

A pet requires neither the level of personal commitment nor the same emotional investment a child does. That's my only point.

Many people do feel a sense of loss for quite a while after losing a beloved pet. Maybe they don't weep and morn publicly, maybe they don't have giant funerals, maybe they don't get time off work or sympathy cards but you'd be wrong to think that people, even ones with children, don't miss the pets they've lost simply because they're animals.

Put another way, feh23 appears to take issue with your seeming equivalence of requiring a certain level of personal commitment and emotional investment with allowing for those levels. Some folks just feel the need to attach that much meaning to their pets. Others can't help it. But because it is not necessary for every pet-owning human to hold those levels of devotion does not mean it's impossible or even stupid. It's just the way some people are. But I don't think feh23 is equating the necessities of child-rearing with the necessities of pet-rearing.

For the record, I don't think this is a subject that requires this much semantic breakdown, but Unca Leaver, you seem so distraught over how other people relate to their pets--it just seemed to me like this discussion could use a little sober meta-analysis.

[feh23]

Yeah, I've been there. Why does suggesting that raising a dog is not nearly as challenging as raising a child cast me in the Cruella DeVille part, for shit's sake? Are you people for real?

Do you have children? I don't know about you, but I hope mine outlive me. Or are you honestly suggesting that losing a child is no more traumatic than losing a dog?

Of course people mourn the loss of their pets. Did I not just say I'd be terribly upset to lose my dog? Are you people reading my fucking posts here or is this some sort of bug-up-the-ass for the bug's sake game?

I think the forum is overdue for its seasonal stupid shot. We can apparently agree that caring for a cat is less work than caring for a dog. We apparently can't come to the same consensus that raising a dog is less work than raising a child. Either you're all fucking nuts or I am.

You can hope, like most parents, that your children outlive you, but in all reality it doesn't always work out that way and we all know that. I don't think it matters one way or another if I have children when it comes to this conversation. And if you're going to whine about people not reading your posts carefully enough, then please keep in mind that I never gave any opinion whatsoever if raising a dog was harder, easier or the same as raising a child.

We both agree that taking a pet on that "final trip to the vet" sucks...great, lets hug. However, you seem to think it's crazy, stupid or both, that some people would have lasting sorrow for the loss of beloved pet, and in my experience with people, I know that you are wrong. I didn't say that they feel years of deep, overwhelming, life changing sorrow as one might with the loss of a child. For many people there is a tangible sense of loss that can linger for the entirety of a person's life, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you spend several years caring for and living with an animal who appears to be unconditionally fond of you, it's natural to miss them when they're gone and it's natural to feel a sense of sadness when you are reminded of that loss.

What is disturbing is when people can't get past that and go on with their lives, just like when people can't get past the loss of family members. Of course it's terrible to lose a child, but some might consider it equally disturbing to observe a person spending the rest of their lives spinning their wheels in that sadness to the exclusion of the remaining living family members.

[TAsunder]

It's ok to do whatever you want with and to your dog, including caging it and treating it like an infant. Just ask any of the dipwads in my neighborhood.

[HOMOsapien]

Don't cage me bro!

...

[Uncle_Leaver]

For the record, I don't think this is a subject that requires this much semantic breakdown ...

Yeah, and that's probably my fault.

... but Unca Leaver, you seem so distraught over how other people relate to their pets--it just seemed to me like this discussion could use a little sober meta-analysis.

Sorry if I sounded "distraught." I'm not. I find animal neglect and abuse distressing, but by all accounts, and differing opinions aside, everyone here seems to be responsible in that department and good on y'all for that.

I think it's great that people fawn all over their pets. And while I do think some people go more than a little overboard with the whole personification of pets thing, I'd rather that than see those animals neglected, obviously. That's all pretty much crap advice.

All I'm trying to get across to the OP is that, yes, adopting a dog is a big deal and can be a great joy or a huge pain in the ass, depending on how well you've done your homework and who you're adopting from. But don't let people tell you crate training is automatically evil, dogs should always live in groups or that adopting one is big a leap as having a child.

I shouldn't have invoked the euthanasia example, though it seemed a good way to make my point at the time. Again, I love my dog. But if my son and dog were trapped in a burning building and I could only save one of them, I wouldn't exactly be reenacting the pivotal scene from Sophie's Choice, if you follow me. That doesn't make me callous. It makes me a friggin' realist. Pet ownership comes nowhere close to the existential liability one assumes by having a child.

[boston_jeff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N6k7kXJTYM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 61858.html

[AaronTheSnob]

While not necessarily equating family members (children, parents, etc.) in this statement, it is nonetheless true that there are a LOT of folks out there who prefer animals to people (in general). I, for one, don't think they're nuts for feeling that way, considering...

[bleurose]

Best story ever from being in practice. The father brings the happy one year old lab back for the annual physical and boosters. Comes alone, in contrast to the entire family coming the year before. Looks a little harried. Expresses the thought to me that even though he had dogs when he was growing up, he did not recall that they were this much work. Couldn't help myself - looked him straight in the eye and said "Of course the dog wasn't any work for you as a kid, your mother was probably the one who took care of the dog. You just played with it and ran around with it. Doubt if you ever fed it beyond the very beginning, sure didn't pick up after it and highly unlikely you ever took the dog for regular walks like you have to do now. And you are giving your kids the exact same memories you have, aren't you?"

It was priceless when he admitted I had nailed it

[freia1]

I think if you want something less high maitenance and not crated during the day, give a cat or two a chance. They are not the devil's throw pillows but friendly, fun and affectionate animals. We have 4 of them and they are almost like dogs - they fetch, they sleep with us, they follow us around and even know a few commands. Check out petfinder and local rescue groups - I volunteer with the Dane Co Humane Soc and Dane Co Friends of Ferals and see if there is a special feline who will melt your heart. Our cats have been super with my daughter who has been raised with them since birth. As for grief, having lost several cats, I can say that to this day, their passing hurts and each person handles grief in a different manner, so we cannot assume what works for one will work for the other.

[evansvillehousewife]

The Dog Fair this weekend was AWESOME. And I met very many rescues that had TONS of older dogs that would be very happy to spend 8 hours a day in a crate in exchange for off work attention and belly rubs.

Met my new BabyDaddy too. He's going to be bred soon and I have my name on the list for one of his pet quailty pups.

Another method of helping animals, thought heart-rending, is by helping victims of abuse through the Dane Co Humane Society. They have a program where they desperately need foster homes for animals owned by people fleeing domestic abuse situation. You house the animals for up to 90 days, and most of them are kid friendly.

And yes, I have owned and fostered rescue dogs, so please don't give me a guilt trip for buying my pup.

[Terry_Hockey]

A dog in a crate all day would be cruel and unnecessary for a housebroken dog. A dog alone all day is also less than ideal. Dogs need to socialize and to be let out to pee. Making a dog hold it more than 8 hours is mean, in my opinion. My dog was completely neurotic until I got him a kitty friend. They play, cuddle, and sleep together at night.

[TheBookPolice]

A dog in a crate all day would be cruel and unnecessary for a housebroken house. A dog alone all day is also less than ideal. Dogs need to socialize and to be let out to pee. Making a dog hold it more than 8 hours is mean, in my opinion.

That's your opinion, cool. But it's not based on any sort of commonly agreed-upon fact.