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Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby kurt_w » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Bland wrote:Also Ned- do you really only care about a problem if it causes death?


Jumping Jesus Christ, can we stop imagining that Ned "cares" about anything that he writes here? He's here (a) to dish out partisan propaganda, and (b) to amuse himself. That's the sum total of his emotional and intellectual involvement in this site.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:34 pm

kurt_w wrote:As for why I'd post that, knowing perfectly well that it's an example of a logical fallacy ... the answer to that problem is left as an exercise for the student.
To piss me off? To piss Ned off? Because people are susceptible to persuasion by even fallacious arguments? I dunno.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:43 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
kurt_w wrote:As for why I'd post that, knowing perfectly well that it's an example of a logical fallacy ... the answer to that problem is left as an exercise for the student.
To piss me off? To piss Ned off? Because people are susceptible to persuasion by even fallacious arguments? I dunno.

Jumping Jesus Christ Arturo, can we stop imagining that Kurt "cares" about anything that he writes here? He's here (a) to dish out partisan propaganda, and (b) to amuse himself. That's the sum total of his emotional and intellectual involvement in this site.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:45 pm

Bland wrote:53 people died directly from accidents involving oil pipelines.

It is impossible to know how many died or got sick due to environmental damage associated with those pipelines.

Sure, it could be zero. It could also be hundreds of thousands.
My guess is it's somewhere in between.
The unaccounted externalities are something to consider, for sure, but until we have better data, it's hard to say. It's almost certainly above zero, but that doesn't mean that these activities should be stopped altogether.

Regarding the 53 deaths, I don't know what you're so worked up about. How many of those killed where pipeline workers? How many uninvolved innocent bystanders? This is a humongous industry that is also somewhat risky even when safety procedures have been followed, akin to construction, manufacturing, trucking, agriculture, etc. People occasionally die on the job in all of those industries, and bystanders are sometimes killed as well (for example, when a truck overturns on the highway and hits passenger cars). We can debate the economic and environmental benefits of major industries on a case-by-case basis, but it's silly to say that they should be banned or prevented from expanding on the basis that they have caused a handful of accidental deaths.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby kurt_w » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:47 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
kurt_w wrote:As for why I'd post that, knowing perfectly well that it's an example of a logical fallacy ... the answer to that problem is left as an exercise for the student.
To piss me off? To piss Ned off? Because people are susceptible to persuasion by even fallacious arguments? I dunno.


Arturo, I don't think I've ever posted anything here with the specific intention of pissing you off. I often disagree with you and occasionally find you exasperating, but am always glad that you're here.

And if I were trying to persuade people by fallacious arguments, then providing a mind-numbingly boring explanation of the logical fallacy involved would be a strange way of going about it.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Bland » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:48 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Regarding the 53 deaths, I don't know what you're so worked up about.

I never said I was. Not sure why you think I did.

Ned said pipelines were clearly and obviously safe. I posted a link demonstrating he was clearly and obviously wrong. Things just got more ridiculous from there.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:56 pm

kurt_w wrote:And if I were trying to persuade people by fallacious arguments, then providing a mind-numbingly boring explanation of the logical fallacy involved would be a strange way of going about it.
I thought you were referring to your original post about the "violent states" and presidential election results - i.e. why you posted something that was so obviously based on fallacious reasoning. I don't know why you would post a bunch of details from Wikipedia. Maybe just to follow suit with this thread and include a huge amount of sparsely-relevant copypasta in your post?
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby kurt_w » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:05 pm

The copypasta (?) has been deleted. I always aim to please. As for the preceding comment ... Ned had posted a piece of minor idiocy implying a correlation between "leftist enclave" and violent crime. I replied with a similarly silly but opposite response to make the point that if Ned wants to draw that kind of correlation it might not always lead in the direction he wants. I didn't think it was worth dignifying with any actual discussion.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby john_titor » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:25 pm

After reading this all day , it's keystone not keypone, as heard in my head. Now I can sleep.

Mr. Biafra wrote:It's the Kepone poisoning-Minamata
Kepone poisoning-Minamata
At the grimy Kepone Factory
Turning people into bonzai trees
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby fennel » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:42 pm

Mr. Biafra wrote:Turning people into bonzai trees
So –– mercury aside –– are the lyrics a faceplant, or a sly reference to "banzai?"
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby john_titor » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:04 pm

Not sure if you are asking me why I posted or why Jello wrote it. Thinking the latter, I have to admit, while I liked the song, I didn't really care what he was talking about. I figured it had to do with some sort of corporate injustice. He repeats Keypone, I confabulated Keystone. 31 years later I look it up (yay Internet!):

Abstract

From March 1974 through July 1975, 76 (56%) of 133 persons who had worked at a pesticide plant that produced Kepone, a chlorinated hydrocarbon insecticide, contracted a previously unrecognized clinical illness characterized by nervousness, tremor, weight loss, opsoclonus, pleuritic and joint pain, and oligospermia. Illness incidence rates for production workers (64%) were significantly higher than for nonproduction personnel (16%). The mean blood Kepone level for workers with illness was 2.53 ppm and for those without disease 0.60 ppm (p less than 0.001). Blood Kepone levels in current workers (mean, 3.12 ppm) were higher than those in former employees (1.22 ppm). Blood Kepone levels for workers in nearby businesses and for residents of a community within 1.6 km of the plant ranged from undetectable to 32.5 ppb. Illness attributable to Kepone was found in two wives of Kepone workers; there was no apparent association between frequency of symptoms and proximity to the plant in the survey of the community population.
PIP:

From March 1974-July 1975, 76 (57%) of 133 persons who had worked at a pesticide plant that produced Kepone, a chlorinated hydrocarbon insecticide, contracted a previously unrecognized clinical illness characterized by nervousness, tremor, weight loss, opsoclonus, pleuritic and joint pain, and oligospermia. Illness incidence rates for production workers (64%) were significantly higher than for nonproduction personnel (16%). The mean blood Kepone level for workers with illness was 2.53 ppm and for those without disease 0.60 ppm (p0.001). Blood Kepone levels in current workers (mean, 3.12 ppm) were higher than those in former employees (1.22 ppm). Blood Kepone levels for workers in nearby businesses and for residents of a community within 1.6 km of the plant ranged from undetectable to 32.5 ppb. Illness attributable to Kepone was found in wives of 2 Kepone workers; there was no apparent association between frequency of symptoms and proximity to the plant in the survey of the community population.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/78669

Dead Kennedys - Kepone Factory (lost session tapes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a41PUZ2oRc

sorry.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby pjbogart » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:15 am

fennel wrote:
Mr. Biafra wrote:Turning people into bonzai trees
So –– mercury aside –– are the lyrics a faceplant, or a sly reference to "banzai?"


I think what made 80's punk so fascinating wasn't the proficient spelling, but the prescient opinions.

"Blow it out your ass, Jerry Falwell, what's wrong with a mind of my own?"- Jello Biafra.

Did you foresee Christian fundamentalists destroying our government in 1985? Jello did.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby snoqueen » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:20 am

Which is a great example of how artists are a society's early-warning system. Damn, 31 years ago already? I will now listen to the song over again with my mind and not just my ears engaged.

Makes you ask what clues we are hearing in 2013 and not processing.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby pjbogart » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:22 am

Dirty Rotten Imbeciles wrote:Reaganomics is killing me, Reaganomics is killing you


Circa 1983. Texas.
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Re: Daryl Hannah protesting against Keystone oil pipeline

Postby Stella_Guru » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:14 pm

snoqueen wrote:Which is a great example of how artists are a society's early-warning system. Damn, 31 years ago already? I will now listen to the song over again with my mind and not just my ears engaged.

Makes you ask what clues we are hearing in 2013 and not processing.

"Cult of Personality", Living Colour, 1988.
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