MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters 
Sunday, April 20, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 73.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

Ryan (not) Lyin

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:08 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:That's one way to look at it. The other is that GM was producing cars that people didn't want to buy (those car models were produced by executive decisions, not union dictated) and Isuzi produced vehicles that the market found desirable.


I can't lie, I'm a big fan of the Isuzu car company. I still want to find an old Isuzu Elf that is in decent condition for sale. Image

Anyway, the Detroit companies have such high operation costs they couldn't really make their smaller cars competitive without shifting the cost to high end, big expense models to offset the cost of their economy cars. I've never been surprised that all Detroit's companies failed where Toyota succeeded, in producing a market ready, highly popular eco/economy friendly car like the Prius (nor at the hypocrisy of those who drive them).

Now that the bottom fell out of the SUV market, GM is still flailing despite both the pension bailout, and cash for clunkers. And the government subsidization of any Chevy Volt(/cough Chevy VOTE) that any customer is dumb enough to buy. It will be bankrupt again soon enough.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:37 pm

ISUZU Elf, eh? Weren't we were talking about your assertion that the Janesville GM plant wasn't scheduled for closure until June of 2009 and how all the fact checkers got it wrong? I mean, before you went off on your tangent attacking union workers and pining for an ISUZU Elf.

What's up with that article you posted, Bludgeon? It seems to have a few convenient errors in it. We're not talking about differences of opinions here, we're talking about dates issued as fact that seem to be about a year off.

Did you realize the error when you posted it? Are you still claiming that the Janesville plant wasn't scheduled for closure until June of 2009? I honestly have no personal knowledge of such things, but everything I can find seems to say that Paul Ryan lied.

So did he or didn't he?
pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby chainsawcurtis » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:21 pm

Ryan lying or not (I believe it was willful deception), I know lots of Janesville folks and everyone in town knew that the plant closing was coming in December of '08 almost two years prior to it's occurance. GM was giving people fair advance warning so they could decide if they wanted to move to other GM facilities to work. This was no surprise to anybody.
chainsawcurtis
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:30 pm
Location: Toetown, WI

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:04 am

chainsawcurtis wrote:Ryan lying or not (I believe it was willful deception), I know lots of Janesville folks and everyone in town knew that the plant closing was coming in December of '08 almost two years prior to it's occurance. GM was giving people fair advance warning so they could decide if they wanted to move to other GM facilities to work. This was no surprise to anybody.


This is a lose lose argument for lefties. Say the plant closed down "under" Obama and its a loss. Say the plant didn't close down under Obama and its a loss. If they let Paul Ryan's statement stand, they concede the point.

If they try to "fact check" it the inevitable result is that all they're really doing is reminding undecided voters that Obama promised the plant would stay open, and it didn't.

So, the real problem for Democrats is that it was a mistake for Obama to say that. In reality, the further lefties want to take the argument, the more a liability it is for them.

Example: Obama went there in 2008 and said "we are going to keep this plant open for another hundred years." Well there were two companies operating in tandem at that factory. GM shut down in 2008, Isuzu shut down in 2009. Was he only talking to GM employees? Obviously not.

Remember, the GM bailout didn't happen before December 2008. So we're not really talking about the bailout. And since we're not talking about the bailout (because he wasn't talking about the bailout), we're not talking about GM specifically. In the context of Obama's original speech, we are talking about this factory. And that factory shut down under his watch as president.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:08 am

This is apparently what it looks like when you get all of your political news from NewsMax. Bludgeon, the reason you think the Democrats are in a lose-lose proposition is because there isn't anything Obama could do to win your vote. And that's fine, but after naming his veep candidate and having the spotlight for the past week through the Republican Convention, Mitt Romney has not received any discernible bounce and the electoral college is still an electoral nightmare.

That's not to say that Mitt Romney can't still pull this election off, but he's going to have to do so by spamming the airwaves with complete fabrications, similar to how you started this thread. What does it say about your candidate that the theme of his convention was based upon an edited FoxNews clip that intentionally takes Obama's words out of context? Think about that for a second. The entire campaign is a deck of cards, an argument that the American people should vote for Mitt Romney because Obama has said and done things that Obama never actually said or did.

Moderate voters ultimately decide the election and if they swing towards Romney it's going to be because they feel that Obama's had four years to deal with the nation's problems and hasn't successfully done so. Democrats and Republicans can bicker all they want about who is responsible for those failures, but the argument actually resonates with swing voters. Making up lies about what the President said or did only to have people discover that you're lying is not going to help Romney's campaign. If anything it's going to shift votes back to Obama.

Bludgeon wrote:Obama went there in 2008 and said "we are going to keep this plant open for another hundred years."


Did he say that, Bludgeon? The purpose of quotation marks is to indicate that you are transcribing the exact words that someone used. If you want to paraphrase, please indicate that you intend to do so.

Barack Hussein Obama wrote:"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."


Did Barack Obama break a promise to keep GM plant open?
pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:55 am

I definitely don't watch a lot of Obama speeches. I like Clinton style Democrats. Barack... there's not one thing I like about him, to the extent that I tend to feel like vomiting whenever even a conservative documentarian quotes from "Dreams from my fodder." I mean, I could elaborate, but I don't like him from the bottom of his shoes to the top of his head. Really it's kind of a ploy to treat Clinton Democrats like they belong in the same group. If all the Republicans disappeared the Democratic party would split in two weeks and the progressive wing would spend all their time calling them 'racists'.

People are always talking about demographic changes, like "what happens when white people are no longer a majority." What I wonder is, "what happens when there are no more Baby Boomer Democrats old enough to remember the party of Kennedy?" Millions culturally conservative "Democrats" are still voting out of loyalty to the memory of a party that doesn't exist. But their kids aren't.

Anyway, when a presidential candidate comes to a small town like Janesville and uses the phrase "this plant will be here for another hundred years," - and then gets elected - that's a "campaign promise". At the very least you should expect it will stay open *one* year.

You can parse it how you please, PJ. The further you break it down, the more of a loss it is. Using your example:

Well, he got elected. He said "if our government is there to support you and give you the assistance you need..."

Well, wasn't it? Speaking about the factory itself and not GM in particular, where was "the assistance they need(ed)?" GM got a lot of "assistance", after all. And what's wrong with Isuzu, that the people who work there don't deserve his "help" either? In fact what did any of that plant's employees get out of Obama's presidency? El squatto.

I guess its such a big deal because Obama's about to lose the state and Janesvill will be a big part of the reason.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby rabble » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:00 am

Wow Bludgie. You're not going to enjoy the next four years at all. I feel really bad for you. :D
Romney's bounce from convention looks short-lived: Reuters/Ipsos poll
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5766
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:20 am

Bludgeon, the problem here isn't that I like Obama and you hate him. I'm not a huge fan of Obama, to tell the truth, and if there had been a primary I would have gladly voted for a better candidate if one had appeared.

The problem is that your criticism of Obama includes numerous assertions that are factually untrue. We aren't talking about differences of opinion, we're talking about flat out lies. You're welcome to hate Obama all you want. Doesn't bother me a bit. But when you post things that are factually untrue, you look like a fool, a propagandist or both.

So don't post articles with bogus timelines. Don't use quotation marks unless you're actually quoting someone. Criticize Obama for the dumb things he's actually said, not for the dumb things you wish he'd said.
pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:30 am

pjbogart wrote:Bludgeon, the problem here isn't that I like Obama and you hate him. I'm not a huge fan of Obama, to tell the truth, and if there had been a primary I would have gladly voted for a better candidate if one had appeared.

The problem is that your criticism of Obama includes numerous assertions that are factually untrue. We aren't talking about differences of opinion, we're talking about flat out lies. You're welcome to hate Obama all you want. Doesn't bother me a bit. But when you post things that are factually untrue, you look like a fool, a propagandist or both.

So don't post articles with bogus timelines. Don't use quotation marks unless you're actually quoting someone. Criticize Obama for the dumb things he's actually said, not for the dumb things you wish he'd said.


You seem to be missing the ... readily apparent facts. His speech was in 2008. The factory employed people on behalf of GM and Isuzu. GM shut down Dec. 2008. Isuzu kep employing people until six months into Obama's term. It is to be assumed that Obama made his campaign pledge to everyone who worked in the factory. 25% of whom were still working there while he was president.

Crossing my fingers hoping you don't expect me to believe that he meant "if our government is there to support you and give you the assistance you need, this GM Plant Will Be Here for Another Hundred years (but not Isuzu)," and then ask me to backtrack and blame Bush for GM closing their half of the plant, but not blame Obama for the Isuzu closure.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Galoot » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:37 am

The backflips that you are willing to do over this are astonishing, Bludgeon. You said that Ryan was "not lyin" and your only evidence that this is the case is that ISUZU kept making a few trucks at the plant?

Yeah, you're going to hate the next four years. Obama is going to win this in a landslide.
Galoot
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1450
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:10 pm

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby fisticuffs » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:39 am

Same employees dipshit. There were not Isuzu employees there were a handful of gm employees who stuck around to finish a contract. My uncle was one of them. Plant closure was decided well before Obama was elected. Bailouts started under bush. I believe is not I promise. The government had no control over the decision. You prefer they did? No? Then shut the fuck up. Where was Paul Ryan, Janesvilles favorite son? What did he do to keep that plant open? Nothing. He didn't want it open. He wanted it to fail.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7738
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:51 am

fisticuffs wrote:Same employees dipshit. There were not Isuzu employees there were a handful of gm employees who stuck around to finish a contract. My uncle was one of them. Plant closure was decided well before Obama was elected. Bailouts started under bush. I believe is not I promise. The government had no control over the decision. You prefer they did? No? Then shut the fuck up. Where was Paul Ryan, Janesvilles favorite son? What did he do to keep that plant open? Nothing. He didn't want it open. He wanted it to fail.


Mmm...

"Orphaned by the loss of its big brother in December, the Isuzu line and its 50 or so hourly and salaried employees continue to build about 25 trucks four days a week in what has become a nearly empty plant."
http://gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/02 ... uty-truck/

They stayed open, kept building trucks in a plant that produced 70,000 Isuzu NPR's altogether. Were the doors closed lights turned off assembly line quiet? No.

The issue of when it was closed was brought up by Democrats because they don't like the uncomfortable fact that Obama said it would stay open for a hundred years and then got shut down six months after he became president. He was there, promised it would stay open, got elected, then it closed. That's the timeline.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby fisticuffs » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:09 am

Stebben84 wrote:Image

Bludgeon, explain this picture.
Thanks,
Reality
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7738
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:11 am

fisticuffs wrote:Bludgeon, explain this picture.
Thanks,
Reality


The GM line vehicles - SUV's, etc. The article I quoted is from Feb 2, 2009. People were still working there for interviews.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby rabble » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:50 am

Qibbling over exact quotes, exact dates, and technical details in a feeble attempt to make it appear the President said and did something different from what he actually said and did.

Like I've said in other threads; great way to start a campaign.

The tactic of saying, over and over again, "it's completely obvious Obama has made a huge blunder and cannot possibly recover from this major loss" when the blunders and losses are built on innuendo, cut 'n paste soundbytes, and blatant lies worked so well for the Republicans last time. No wonder they're doing it again.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5766
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to National Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


FacebookcommentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar