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Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby pjbogart » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:18 pm

I don't really get the "non-citizen" angle of the voter fraud debate. While I'm not suggesting that polls be opened to all residents, citizens and aliens, if 35 aliens cared enough about the government to risk getting charged with voter fraud, then I'd say you have 35 people who care more about their civic duties than the vast majority of actual citizens.

The type of voter fraud that Americans SHOULD be concerned about is stuff that could actually affect outcomes. Like stuffing ballot boxes. Corrupt clerks and poll workers. People who spread disinformation to discourage legitimate voters. Laws intended to limit access to the polls. These situations are actual fraud (and conspiracy). They CAN affect election outcomes.

For some reason Republicans don't seem to worry about them as much.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:31 am

On an aside, while non-citizens cannot vote in federal elections, they can in state and local elections. It's up to the individual states. Some do allow it.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:34 am

Well isn't this precious: RNC cuts ties with firm over voter fraud allegations...

Election officials in six Florida counties are investigating what appears to be "hundreds” of cases of suspected voter fraud by a GOP consulting firm that has been paid nearly $3 million by the Republican National Committee to register Republican voters in five key battleground states, state officials tell NBC.


http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/27/14126789-rnc-cuts-ties-with-firm-over-voter-fraud-allegations?lite
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby rabble » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:45 am

When a non-conservative organiztion *might* have had some registrations that didn't meet some requirements, it's representative of a systemic corruption that can only be cleansed by destroying the organization and all it does. And every organization with which it might have had contact, just to be on the safe side.

Otherwise, it's "a few 'bad apples,' workers who were hired to register Republican voters for $12 an hour and then tried to 'cheat the system.' " and anyway, they have "rigorous quality controls."

Gotta love the consistency.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:45 am

The Wisconsin Supreme Court holds off on ruling about the voter ID requirements.

Wisconsin's highest court said it won't hear challenges to the state's voter ID law until a court of appeals hears the cases, a setback for Republicans who wanted voters to have to show photo ID to vote in November's election.

The state Supreme Court on Thursday turned down a request to have the cases bypass the appeals court. That means it's highly unlikely that the photo ID requirement will be reinstated in time for the election.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:49 am

Meanwhile, our non-partisan AG will continue to fight for this absolutely necessary, completely non-partisan concern.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:47 pm

I hadn't heard about this:
Our neighbors in Minnesota will be voting on a constitutional amendment requiriring Voter ID.
Unlike voter suppression legislation in other states, this will be much harder to challenge, which will get around pesky legal challenges. Also,
While Gardner estimated it would cost Minnesota taxpayers $35 million to implement a voter ID program, it is not currently possible to determine what the costs would be to either the city of Duluth or St. Louis county, since the specific means by which such a program would be implemented remains, according to City Councilor Patrick Boyle, “vague in direction and unclear.

Nice to know the ruling party will have lots flexibility in implementing their suppression efforts.

How do they justify this effort? If you've been following this thread, then you know its a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
According to Hartman, there have been a little more than 100 convictions statewide for voter fraud, mostly involving felons. Hartman goes on to note that since a photo ID doesn’t tell anyone if the holder is a felon, the amendment would not address that issue.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:40 pm

It's time for the Democrats to give up on the Voter ID fight, the Republicans have won this political war in a rout. Ya, the legal challenges have bought some time here and there, excellent, but the writing is on the wall going forward: the American people believe by wide margins that a photo ID requirement is a resonable one.

I have been arguing against voter suppression in online forums, have lost. Conservatives like voter suppression, they believe people too irresponsibile to have an ID don't deserve to vote. People in the middle are unmoved by the argument that getting an ID presents a barrier for some. Only true blue liberals give a flying fuck.

Dems need to reverse strategy. They need to become the champion of ID requirements. Make ID required EVERYWHERE possible, particularly for all government services. This is the only way that people who are on food stamps, or people on medicaid, or visitors to the community clinic are all going to get proper ID. (This strategy will have a multiplier effect, when one poor person goes through ID process, they will educate their friends.)

I don't see any effort by Democrats to get picture IDs in the hands of poor people. Every 4 years liberals make efforts to register people, but by then it is too late. If some adult doesn't have a picture ID, it means they are getting by just fine without it. Expecting somebody who doesn't drive, has never voted, has no bank account to get a copy of a birth certificate, then find their way to a DMV, just so they can start voting is unlikely to happen.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby grimfees » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:48 pm

Rich Schultz wrote:If the liberals on this forum are so unhappy with the inconvenience of dealing with the DMV over something as simple as obtaining an ID why do they want to inflict a similar bureaucracy on our medical system?

Image


They don't. Obamacare is just Romneycare Redux and a giveaway to the Health Insurance conglomerates. Nice try, though.

Keep parrotting those Faux Nooz talking points!
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:22 am

Huckleby wrote:
I have been arguing against voter suppression in online forums, have lost. Conservatives like voter suppression, they believe people too irresponsibile to have an ID don't deserve to vote.

Did you really expect to convince these wingnuts based on rational arguments? These people live in an ideological bubble that is completely isolated from reality.Their whole argument is based on lies:
* voter fraud is a problem
* voter ID is intended to fix the problem

Good people (including NAACP, LWV) have been challenging these voter suppression efforts, and having good success in the courts: here in Wisconsin, some success in PA and Ohio.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby wack wack » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:30 am

Huckleby wrote:It's time for the Democrats to give up on the Voter ID fight, the Republicans have won this political war in a rout.


How many of the voter ID laws passed and/or proposed across the country over the last few years will actually be in effect for this election?
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:01 am

DCB wrote: Did you really expect to convince these wingnuts based on rational arguments? These people live in an ideological bubble that is completely isolated from reality.Their whole argument is based on lies:
* voter fraud is a problem
* voter ID is intended to fix the problem.

Here I go again, playing the devil's advocate... but I am sincere in recognizing the pro-ID side's defensible points.

My view of reality is that almost no voter fraud occurs as a result of false identify presented. (Other types of fraud are possible.) But it is not absolutely provable that, for instance, illegals aren't using false ID to register and vote. An individual's view of human nature comes into play, and it is possible to hypothesize fraud. People are emotional creatures, we ALL ignore evidence that contradicts our biases if it feels good. We all have our ideological bubbles to some degree.

The majority of people who support voter ID are neither dishonest nor stupid. They don't see the voter suppression aspect because they simply can't relate to poor people who make it through life without a driver's license. If you don't believe my assertion here, I'm sorry because you are carrying around unnecessary bitterness IMO, but we will have to agree to disagree.

Oh, if you want to hold-on to some bitterness, it's absolutely true that there also are plenty on the right who cynically know exactly what they are doing with voter suppression, and they are lying. Those would be the bad Germans.

DCB wrote:Good people (including NAACP, LWV) have been challenging these voter suppression efforts, and having good success in the courts: here in Wisconsin, some success in PA and Ohio.

Yes, they are doing the Lord's work.
But mostly I see the end result is softening the Voter ID Laws around the edges. The Republicans are comng-back with versions of Voter ID that pass muster.

Large majorities believe that Voter ID laws are fair and reasonable. The reason being is it takes some real effort and empathy to understand the world of people who are different. And Americans tend to be very judgemental about the issue of personal responsibility.
Don't take-on the majority culture directly if you can work around it!

Dems need to stop waiting for the courts to fix everything, we need to do the heavy lifting. Look at Texas, I don't have the stats handy but the legal Hispanics barely vote there, the poor have ridiculously low levels of ID, and Republicans will always find tricky ways to just be in compliance with voting rights act.

The public WILL support laws requiring ID for all government services. That too has ring of common sense to it.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:03 am

wack wack wrote:
Huckleby wrote:It's time for the Democrats to give up on the Voter ID fight, the Republicans have won this political war in a rout.


How many of the voter ID laws passed and/or proposed across the country over the last few years will actually be in effect for this election?

The Brennan Center has a comprehensive summary:
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/re ... w_changes/

It looks like only New Hampshire is currently in effect. Pennsylvania and others are up in the air. But there are lots of other suppression efforts that will have passed as well, e.g. limiting registration.

Ari Berman has been doing a lot of good writing on this issue.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:04 am

wack wack wrote:How many of the voter ID laws passed and/or proposed across the country over the last few years will actually be in effect for this election?


That's a good question, the record is mixed. I will see if Wikipedia has a summary, but the issue is vast and fluid. I know that Texas, the worst problem in the country, has passed muster with voting rights act. (BTW, texas may become a blue state before too long if this problem ever gets fixed.)
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:09 am

DCB wrote:The Brennan Center has a comprehensive summary:
http://www.brennancenter.org/content/re ... w_changes/

It looks like only New Hampshire is currently in effect. Pennsylvania and others are up in the air. But there are lots of other suppression efforts that will have passed as well, e.g. limiting registration.


So you think New Hampshire is only state in union where people will be needing photo ID to register to vote? I seriously doubt that, the map shows many states with ID passed, but I obviously need to do some reading. Thanks for excellent links.

I think this map shows the momentum of public opinion in favor of voter ID. I of course am in favor of fighting through courts, but my instincts are that the public will have their way in the end.
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