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An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby scratch » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:50 pm

Meade wrote:
TheBookPolice wrote:Ask this guy; he seems to know what's going on in other peoples' minds

Clever. Sort of.
Here http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/10/07/Kalle-Lasn-Occupy-Wall-Street/ is my source for my assertion that, "Most voted for Obama with hopes of change.":
On why it took three years after Lehman Brothers' implosion for people to storm the streets:
"When the financial meltdown happened, there was a feeling that, 'Wow, things are going to change. Obama is going to pass all kinds of laws, and we are going to have a different kind of banking system, and we are going to take these financial fraudsters and bring them to justice.' There was a feeling like, 'Hey, we just elected a guy who may actually do this.' In a way, there wasn't this desperate edge. Among the young people there was a very positive feeling. And then slowly this feeling that he's a bit of a gutless wonder slowly crept in, and now we're despondent again."


Cleverer. Sort of. Did the nasty forum software strip out your citation the first time around, Meade?
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby TheBookPolice » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:56 pm

I don't think it would pass muster in a court of law, Meade, if you were to claim that OWS protesters in one place behaved or believed in a certain fashion because other, separate protesters behaved or believed in that fashion--but I'll give you credit for agreeing that more needs to be done to bring lawless and unscrupulous financial puppeteers into line with a civil society.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:02 pm

Image
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:08 pm

Meade wrote:Here http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/10/07/Kalle ... ll-Street/ is my source for my assertion that, "Most voted for Obama with hopes of change.":

I love the fact that the source for your assertion is another person's assertion.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby O.J. » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:13 pm

jjoyce wrote:Images of that cop have now reached the level of photoshop gags. The protesters have won the week.


Best I've seen so far...

Image
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Madcity Expat » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:54 pm

wack wack wrote: I think most cops are control freaks with less-than-positive outlooks on humanity to start, and are attracted to the profession for this reason. It's easier to be a natural asshole without repercussions working as a cop than it is working as a desk jockey.


This statement is rubbish.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby David Blaska » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:25 pm

If the occupiers were passive, it was a case of passive-aggression. They linked arms to frustrate a legitimate order to vacate the park. James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal has a useful take. Amusing all the anti-police rhetoric on this thread.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:38 pm

David Blaska wrote:If the occupiers were passive, it was a case of passive-aggression. They linked arms to frustrate a legitimate order to vacate the park.

Was that also your opinion of the sit-ins during the struggle for civil rights in the 60s?

Just wonderin'.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby DCB » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:11 pm

jjoyce wrote:To be cynical for a second... Point: Occupy.

This is what protests are partially about: images. Push the cops to do something stupid, get it on video and distribute.


I posted this link in another thread, but I'm reposting because I think double reinforces the Occupy karma points:
What transpired was awe-inspiring. I wrote up an account and you can read it here. I just posted a new extended video, of a young man who was among the kids affected by pepper spray on Friday, and it shows him leading the 1,000-strong Davis students in an incredibly disciplined, surprisingly restrained, collective shaming of the chancellor as she walked to her car. There was no intimidation or ‘hostage taking,’ as I understand some in the Sacramento media are portraying it — not to be cliche, but it was pure nonviolent people power.

http://thesecondalarm.com/2011/11/20/pe ... ent-leads/
This isn't just about images - it sounds like the Davis students thought out a strategy and stuck to it.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:25 pm

DCB wrote:... it sounds like the Davis students thought out a strategy and stuck to it.

Much like the non-violent strategy of King and others during the Civil Rights Era and most (but not all) during anti-Vietnam protests. Of course, there is always the violent extreme in all populist movements. But passive resistance often wins out. The lessons* of Gandhi and MLK.

*For those who think all cops are pigs, former Madison Police Chief David Cooper had posters of both in his office. My students, on a field trip to the courts and to law enforcement in the C/C Building, were impressed by that when he greeted us there.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby ilikebeans » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:36 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
David Blaska wrote:If the occupiers were passive, it was a case of passive-aggression. They linked arms to frustrate a legitimate order to vacate the park.

Was that also your opinion of the sit-ins during the struggle for civil rights in the 60s?

Just wonderin'.

I second this request for an opinion.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:19 pm

David Blaska wrote: James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal has a useful take.

I love his extensive use of the word "Obamavillians."

Also, I never saw anybody strike a horse.

You guys are really getting desperate. "Grabbing at straws" doesn't come close any more.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby snoqueen » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:25 pm

If you think the nonviolent protesters sitting on the ground were violating a legitimate police order, and you think the correct response was to then pepper-spray them, you need historical perspective.

Nonviolent resistance includes civil disobedience, which is deliberate breaking of a law for a higher purpose. While I am not convinced these demonstrators broke any law, their actions were clearly in the tradition of American civil disobedience which brought us the great civil rights advances of the 60s.

Passive resistance and nonviolent actions are at the core of this tradition, and that's exactly what we see in the pictures under discussion.

In cases like this, history is not on the side of the cops who initiate violence in response to nonviolence.

Image

Image

Edmund Pettus Bridge
Bloody Sunday
Selma Alabama March 7, 1965

I really hope you are not going to come down on the side of the police response in this historic event, but by now I realize I can never guess what you guys' line of thinking will be.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby David Blaska » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
David Blaska wrote:If the occupiers were passive, it was a case of passive-aggression. They linked arms to frustrate a legitimate order to vacate the park.

Was that also your opinion of the sit-ins during the struggle for civil rights in the 60s?

Just wonderin'.


In point of fact, I took a nose full of pepper spray in the protests of the 1960s against Vietnam and was ready to be arrested in Father Groppi's civil rights protests (and fully expected to be as the police led us away). The point of civil disobedience is, if you're going to do it, you got to be prepared to pay the price. The price, however, should be commensurate with the offense. Pepper spray stings like hell but is preferable to the night stick. I survived it! alTHo I don't think sew **!# gud ennymore.

The Occupyvillains (my spelling) resisted a police order, refused to move, got sprayed and now are complaining about it. I would expect no less of them.
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby snoqueen » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:55 pm

UC-Davis police chief placed on administrative leave; 2 officers on administrative leave; president of entire UC system to convene chancellors to discuss to discuss “how to ensure proportional law enforcement response to nonviolent protest.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/22/us/po ... ml?_r=1&hp

Doing civil disobedience involved being ready to pay the price, but the purpose of the whole exercise is to raise public consciousness and discussion. In California, that's what's happening.

Good.

But it still doesn't justify the police behavior, and for anyone to complain about that is perfectly legitimate.
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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