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Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestopo?

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:13 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:Just saw a Homeland Security "Police" SUV driving around. What's up with that?



They're coming to suppress your right to post horrible gifs and jpgs


Image
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestopo?

Postby you must be joking » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:11 pm

fisticuffs wrote:As a general rule you should only compare things to things you know how to spell.


fisticuffs,

Yea your right so I misspelled Gestapo; whatever.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestopo?

Postby you must be joking » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:13 pm

Stella_Guru wrote:
you must be joking wrote:So on this Fourth of July coming up, ask yourself this question: "What would those who gave the boot to the King of England say of our current Der Leader today?" A leader whose spying tactics at the very least, resemble those of a tyrant whose name is Adolf Hitler.
They would be saying Der Leader has become lawless and treats citizens like enemies.


Stella Guru,

I think it would be correct to say that Obama has started treating not only U.S. citizens like enemies but citizens of other countries as well.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestopo?

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:18 pm

you must be joking wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:As a general rule you should only compare things to things you know how to spell.


fisticuffs,

Yea your right so I misspelled Gestapo; whatever.


Well if you are going to talk like you know something about a specific topic it helps to let the reader know you know how to spell it. It's really the easiest thing to get right. All those words and honestly I didn't read them just because it's clear from your spelling error you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Also it's you're not your. This is 'Merica! Speak English!
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestopo?

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:37 pm

you must be joking wrote:
Stella_Guru wrote:
you must be joking wrote:So on this Fourth of July coming up, ask yourself this question: "What would those who gave the boot to the King of England say of our current Der Leader today?" A leader whose spying tactics at the very least, resemble those of a tyrant whose name is Adolf Hitler.
They would be saying Der Leader has become lawless and treats citizens like enemies.


Stella Guru,

I think it would be correct to say that Obama has started treating not only U.S. citizens like enemies but citizens of other countries as well.

But, but, I thought the world would love Obama and, in turn, us?
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby you must be joking » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:40 pm

Yea, I know must of you are thinking that Obama is a great President; that anyone who offers criticism of his policies is just a right wing Neanderthal, I get that. However, when the people and government of Germany are spied upon by our government it does give cause to be concerned. After all, it does beg the question: What other countries who are our friends, or maybe soon former friends, are we spying on?

There was an article in Sundays New York Times that had the headline as follows: "Germans Loved Obama. Now We Don't Trust Him."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/opinion/sunday/germans-loved-obama-now-we-dont-trust-him.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 In the article the author, a Green Party politician, takes Obama to task for spying on the people. I have to say I liked the way the author closed the article by quoting from Benjamin Franklin: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It is good to see that a citizen of another country can see the value of that quote. It is distressing to see, judging by the responses so far, that many, but not all, of the citizens of our county cannot.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:01 pm

you must be joking wrote:Yea, I know must of you are thinking that Obama is a great President; that anyone who offers criticism of his policies is just a right wing Neanderthal, I get that.


I don't think Obama is doing that great a job, and I didn't support him in the last election because of the military and intelligence gathering actions taken (or not taken) in his first terms. And guess what, I still think you are a neanderthal.

As bad as the the intelligence gathering activities that he has allowed to continue under his administration are, they don't hold a candle to the activities of the German SS. Your going Godwin right out of the gate, shows a level of ignorance to the crimes of the German Gestapo as well as a lack of interest in any intelligent conversation.

The fact that you fail to acknowledge that these programs began under a right wing president demonstrates you are more interested in partisan attacks rather than the supposed issue in your OP.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:15 pm

you must be joking wrote:After all, it does beg the question: What other countries who are our friends, or maybe soon former friends, are we spying on?


And you don't think people are spying on us!?

I'm not saying either side is justified, but if you think we're the only ones doing it, you're pretty naive.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby DCB » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:12 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The fact that you fail to acknowledge that these programs began under a right wing president demonstrates you are more interested in partisan attacks rather than the supposed issue in your OP.

Also, these programs have strong support from both parties in Congress.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:18 pm

DCB wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:The fact that you fail to acknowledge that these programs began under a right wing president demonstrates you are more interested in partisan attacks rather than the supposed issue in your OP.

Also, these programs have strong support from both parties in Congress.


Sure but.... Hitler! Amiright? also too, Gazpacho.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby you must be joking » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:26 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
you must be joking wrote:Yea, I know must of you are thinking that Obama is a great President; that anyone who offers criticism of his policies is just a right wing Neanderthal, I get that.


I don't think Obama is doing that great a job, and I didn't support him in the last election because of the military and intelligence gathering actions taken (or not taken) in his first terms. And guess what, I still think you are a neanderthal.

As bad as the the intelligence gathering activities that he has allowed to continue under his administration are, they don't hold a candle to the activities of the German SS. Your going Godwin right out of the gate, shows a level of ignorance to the crimes of the German Gestapo as well as a lack of interest in any intelligent conversation. The fact that you fail to acknowledge that these programs began under a right wing president demonstrates you are more interested in partisan attacks rather than the supposed issue in your OP.



Francis,

After reading how the Europeans are reacting to this I don't think I'm overreating at all. Here are just a few comments from European leaders in Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/

Markus Ferber, European parliamentarian for Bavaria
"A democratic constitutional state that uses Stasi methods sacrifices all credibility as a moral authority. It has destroyed trust."

Manfred Weber, deputy head and security expert for the European People's Party
"It is unacceptable when European diplomats and politicians are spied on in their day-to-day activities. Our confidence has been shaken."

Martin Schulz, president of the European Parliament, in an interview with broadcaster France 2.
"We need more precise information. But if it is true, it is a huge scandal. That would mean a huge burden for relations between the EU and the US. We now demand comprehensive information."

"I was always sure that dictatorships, some authoritarian systems, tried to listen ... but that measures like that are now practiced by an ally, by a friend, that is shocking, in the case that it is true."

It is not I who is using the words; Stasi, Authoritarian systems, Dictatorships, Huge Scandal, Destroyed Trust, among others to describe this situation, it is the Europeans.

As far as your comments regarding George Bush and his spying; get over it will you, that fool hasn't been President in over 5 years. It is the current fool in office that is of concern now. Obama has to the best of my knowledge took the spying programs that were started prior to his Presidency and increased, rather than decreased, the size and the scope of those programs.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:02 am

So because the hyperbole is also taking place in Europe, you think it's less of an exaggeration here?

There is some valid comparison between the stasi or gestapo and what the NSA did. All three groups collected data in an intrusive and all encompassing manner. NSA has gathered far more obviously due to both the nature of society and the level of technology, but I doubt anyone would claim that the Stasi or Gestapo wouldn't have collected as least as much if not more data.

But the comparison stops there. The Stasi and Gestapo both acted on the collected data to arrest, torture, and kill thousands of the citizens they were supposedly protecting. So far all the NSA seems to have done is collect data that I agree, it should not have. If more info comes out that more is being done with that data on a systemic basis, I'm more than willing to reassess my position. So far it hasn't, and no one is worried about the NSA or any other federal agency taking them away for what they've said or thought.

Until that starts happening, any real comparison between the NSA and the Stasi or Gestapo is purely hyperbole and in your case an obvious partisan attack.

And George Bush yesterday made it clear that not only did he start said program, but he fully supports Obama's continuation of it. Just like the majority of Republicans in congress (who still are in office), several of whom were aware of the program's details and even voted for the original bill that is it's legal justification.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:14 pm

Not sure if this belongs here or needs a new topic of its own, but it's not just your electronic communications any more:

...[in] a vastly more expansive effort, the Mail Isolation Control and Tracking program[,]... Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images....

The.. .program... is more than a century old but is still considered a powerful tool. At the request of law enforcement officials, postal workers record information from the outside of letters and parcels before they are delivered. (Actually opening the mail requires a warrant.) The information is sent to whatever law enforcement agency asked for it. Tens of thousands of pieces of mail each year undergo this scrutiny.


Read it all here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/mo ... ef=general

Another tidbit from the article:

For mail cover requests, law enforcement agencies simply submit a letter to the Postal Service, which can grant or deny a request without judicial review. Law enforcement officials say the Postal Service rarely denies a request. In other government surveillance programs, such as wiretaps, a federal judge must sign off on the requests.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby DCB » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:07 pm

A comparison of data collected: The East German Stasi vs. the US NSA:
http://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html

I think its a little unfair - its sort of like comparing prices w/o taking into account inflation. I think the equivalent would be Moore's Law, where computing power doubles every period. The period is roughly 1.5 - 2.0 years.

Between say 1953 and 2013 is about 30 - 40 doublings.

Using the more aggressive period, 1.5 years, we get:
2**40 is about 1 trillion (10**12) . So in today's values, the Stasi's 48,000 "filing cabinets" would be 48 x10**15, much higher than the NSA's 42 trillion "filing cabinets".

But if we use a period of 2 years, we get:
2**30 is about 1 million (10**6), which gives the Stasi 48 x 10**9 "filing cabinets" in today's values, much lower than the NSA.

I really think the NSA should devote some of their amazing compute power to give us a much more precise value for the Moore's law doubling, so we can figure this out.
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Re: Obama N.S.A.=Gestapo?

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:42 pm

Americans have for years ridiculed China and Russia for their aggressive political policing, eavesdropping, snooping, spying, hacking, and the like. It's time we realized the US is no different.
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