[fisticuffs]

Question: all arguments aside, I'm not detecting a lot of confidence that the stimulus will have a significant effect, would that be correct?

My lack of confidence is because of the steadfast Republicans doing everything in their power to make sure this stimulus doesn't have the desired effect. If anything I think we should have gone bigger and faster.

Personally I just see how its being used and I wish we were better than that as a nation.

I hold my assessment on how it's being used until it actually does get used. Only 10% of it is out there right now. The good news for you is that unlike the Bush Administration you will actually be able to check up on it and see how it's being used. Bush handed over money to the banks with zero oversight. Obama handed over more with strings attached and at least some transparency to the public. Bush gave Gm money prior to the election under the table in an effort to move the ball into Obama's court. Obama gave them more money with strings attached and more transparency. Bush financed every cent of his two wars with emergency finance off the budget. Obama has put that money back into the budget where the American people should be able to see its true cost. While everything has not gone 100% perfect of course I think in every sense that I can imagine the Obama presidency in a few months has bested the Bush presidency for 8 years.

[Cortez]

Question: all arguments aside, I'm not detecting a lot of confidence that the stimulus will have a significant effect, would that be correct?

My lack of confidence is because of the steadfast Republicans doing everything in their power to make sure this stimulus doesn't have the desired effect. If anything I think we should have gone bigger and faster.

Personally I just see how its being used and I wish we were better than that as a nation.

I hold my assessment on how it's being used until it actually does get used. Only 10% of it is out there right now. The good news for you is that unlike the Bush Administration you will actually be able to check up on it and see how it's being used. [...] While everything has not gone 100% perfect of course I think in every sense that I can imagine the Obama presidency in a few months has bested the Bush presidency for 8 years.

Sorry to employ ambiguous language. By "how its being used" I mean the way its being distributed per the link I posted and other articles I've read, - essentially delivered by means of ultimatum in many cases.

[fisticuffs]

Sorry to employ ambiguous language. By "how its being used" I mean the way its being distributed per the link I posted and other articles I've read, - essentially delivered by means of ultimatum in many cases.

For it to work as its supposed to its got to be used and as I previously stated Republicans and some Dems I'm sure are more interested in political victory than they are with fixing our nations problems. I'm sure the people of Louisiana would have preferred their national guard was in LA during Katrina instead of Iraq but the Bush Admin. gave them the ultimatum that they needed to go. If we could pick and choose what we want every penny of our tax dollars to be spent on I for one wouldn't have given a penny to support that war.

[DCB]

Sorry to employ ambiguous language. By "how its being used" I mean the way its being distributed per the link I posted and other articles I've read, - essentially delivered by means of ultimatum in many cases.

What ultimatum?

In the original article, Kyl was making incorrect statments about the stimulus money. He got called out on it. Why is it you righties get so offended about bringing up facts?

[O.J.]

what confidence can we have that the entire thing has been anything other than a handout to friends and a battering ram to enemies of the white house?

Here's a crystal clear example of the President doing the opposite; funding programs against the interests of one of his biggest sources of support.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32116686/ns ... ngton_post

[Cortez]

As the unemployment rate surged to 10.2 percent in October, reaching double digits for the first time in 26 years, it suddenly seemed possible that the nation might yet confront the worst joblessness since the Great Depression.

In the six decades since the government began compiling such data, the highest level of unemployment came at the end of 1982, when it hit 10.8 percent. Despite the widespread assumption that the recession has already ended, and even as the economy has resumed growing, the government’s latest snapshot of the labor market released Friday testified to the uncomfortable truth that expansion had yet to translate into jobs.

“The guy on the street is going to ask, ‘What recovery?’ ” said Stuart Hoffman, chief economist at the PNC Financial Services Group in Pittsburgh. “The job market is still in reverse.”

The sharp rise in unemployment — which climbed from 9.8 percent in September, as the nation lost another 190,000 net jobs — intensified pressure on the Obama administration to show results from the $787 billion package of spending measures unleashed early this year to spur the economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/busin ... ml?_r=1&hp

What's good about it: Dems are likely to pass a second stimulus bill. Why is that good? Because this time maybe they will try buying my vote by sending everyone money Very cool. What else is good about it: they might actually spend this one on creating jobs instead of .... well lets not get into what went on with the last one.

What's bad: What's bad is what all we blue collar sucks (excluding me) got in exchange for going out in a limb by believing that just because the Dems wanted (NEEDED) the blue collar vote, that the Democrats actually hold blue collar issues as important to their agenda and are looking out for blue collar interests......................................................... Oh the surprise! How unexpected. Its almost worth it to be lied to just to be so surprised. What all we blue coller sucks got outta 2009: Nada (unless the blame game counts as more than nada)... Oh, can we pay our bills with this blame, ye Dems in congress? Can we go to the grocery store with an account of the wrongs of the Bush presidency in exchange for food? When the landlord wants the rent can we blame it on Dick Cheney? We can tell the electric company, "give Obama time, he will pull us out of this mess, and please accept this b-l-a-m-e as an I.O.U., which you can surely cash in the day the Great One causes money to rain down from the sky and turns all this oil into sunshine?"

10.2% unemployment - reported.

[minnow]

There are too many questions on the stimulus pay outs. For those Govnrs. who opted out perhaps they were understanding much more than the others. Unemployment advances, school stimulus, ect. but only for 2 years. What then. Who will have to pay the increase payouts. The states, of course. So another stimulus, what will be accomplished with it. As one other poster stated - "Nada."

[cmb53208]

I'm not sure about the mechanic of the stimulus, but I am sure that the economy can't be straightened out in just under a year. What i do know is that Obama can't be expected to fix this mess in that short of a time. What I do know is that he couldn't have fucked it up that much in that time either.

So I guess my verdict on Obama is this: while he has been underwhelming at times, he certainly isn't evil or responsible for the economic mess this nation is in.

[minnow]

This mess our country is in was caused by both the Democrats and the Republicans. Started with Nixon. And Clinton helped. Why China has "permanent favored nation" status is beyond my comprehension. And why was Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac were pushed to cover morgages to so many unqualified buyers. Why are we giving research grants to Drug companies who move their manufacturing plants overseas. And why are we handing over stimulus money to Wall Street and auto companies who are shipping their accounting and manufacturing facilities to Mexico and Canada. And U.S. Steel, no longer provides material for our companies, the steel is marked "Canada" or "China." Is it no wonder that our economy is slipping and Canada and China are growing?
The stimulus didn't reach those who lost jobs, it was designated to prevent more jobs from going away - but mostly in Education and Wall Street and Banks. How many of those unemployed have gotten any benefit from the stimulus paid out by every American citizen who pays taxes.
Unemployment rate isn't Bizarre, it's a crime against our country and those who have lost their job. And both parties are responsible.

[rabble]

Why China has "permanent favored nation" status is beyond my comprehension.

I thought it was because we owed them more money than we could ever pay back.

[Cortez]

I'm not sure about the mechanic of the stimulus, but I am sure that the economy can't be straightened out in just under a year. What i do know is that Obama can't be expected to fix this mess in that short of a time. What I do know is that he couldn't have fucked it up that much in that time either.

So I guess my verdict on Obama is this: while he has been underwhelming at times, he certainly isn't evil or responsible for the economic mess this nation is in.

Ultimately I agree with everything you just said - from a different angle, however. Fix this mess in under a year........ I honestly don't think it will be fixed in 25 years. And if it isn't fixed in 25 years, it will be a coin toss, 50/50 odds, that it will ever be good again. Look at all the properties around us and try to realistically wonder WHO will own them then.

A friend of mine said when the 2008 election was newly over, "I just hope people don't expect instant results".... I thought about this, keeping in mind that I heard it from many other sources. What is being said? I have come to realize that what people are really saying is "I hope people don't expect any results." It really is. There was a political cartoon out shortly after the election depicting a marathon race with Bush running to the 2009 finish line handing a stick of dynamite over to the current president. This is a common sentiment among the left. That being the case, can we translate what is really being said? Yes. It means: "if anything goes wrong, its somebody else's fault".

SO I think you are right. He can't be expected to fix it in less than a year, nor could anyone in his place. No matter who got elected, they couldn't fix it in a year.

So what is my position? My position is that there is no silver bullet and this silver bullet thinking is what leads us here. There are no easy choices. There is no magic bean sprout...... And, then again, there is. When the tower has toppled, how do you repair it? Answers: Hard work; discipline; foresight; wisdom; understanding; patience and perserverence. If corruption has eroded the system, you don't cleanse it by feeding and breeding more. What does our civilization need to stop losing and start building prosperity? It needs a climate like the one that brought the prosperity which we have squandered in our decline. A climate friendly to industry - to producing things. We've driven industry away - we've driven jobs away by telling the people who want to put Americans to work to go fly a kite, and they have. They are flying their kites in Mexico, Canada, China, Brazil, Austrailia......... anywhere but here. People who once raised a family working for paper mills, the steel industry, lumber.... many of them are cooks, waitresses, ........ servants. Servants, now. Low paid, over worked, and degraded. Want things to get better here? Make it easier to start a business, produce things, and give people jobs. The unemployment rate is 10% - where did the business go? What brought the world up? The Industrial Revolution. By targeting industry, punishing it, pushing it away, where have we brought ourselves? Where have these unions (bye bye Studebaker), EPA standards (bye bye auto industry), fines, fees, taxes and regulations brought us? It's as if we're dead set on regressing into a 3rd world nation. Dead set on becoming pre-industrial. Which nations are on the rise? The ones who actually WANT industry. The ones who produce things. They're up, we're down. They make things, we don't. Right wing, left wing, doesn't matter. What good leaders do in this circumstance is fix what's harming us and improve what's helping. Ours are doing the opposite.

[jonnygothispen]

I think it's important for conservatives to recall that Carter handed Reagan steady unemployment figures of 7.5% that stayed roughly the same until October 1981. Carter also hired Paul Volcker as head of the fed tho he was warned that Volcker's jacking of interest rates would likely cost Carter the election, but save the economy. Carter chose his country over personal gain, the opposite of Reagan who outbid Carter in sending Arms to the Ayatollah (Yes, Carter made an arms bid too), and having the Hostages held until January 20 instead. Reagan signed the first shipment of Stinger missiles to the Ayatollah in early 1981 according to Lawrence Walsh's book "FIREWALL: the Iran/Contra Controversy and cover-up," 1997.

Reagan then passed his great 1981 (?) Wealth Redistribution package to the top. Unemployment went up peaking in November and December 1983 at 10.8% almost 2 YEARS after he took office. Unemployment figures didn't return to Carter era levels until JUNE of 1984, after Reagan's term was nearly over.

(I remember reading that Reagan also changed the standards for measuring unemployment to make them look more generous to his administration, but I can't recall the details.)

I just wanted to point this out since Reagan is often considered the "Great Savior" when his policies actually made things worse, and for a longer period, and because of all the pressure on Obama to deliver more in a shorter period of time from a far worse recession.

[Cortez]

I think it's important for conservatives to recall that Carter handed Reagan steady unemployment figures of 7.5% that stayed roughly the same until October 1981.

Way ahead of ya partner.

Carter also hired Paul Volcker as head of the fed tho he was warned that Volcker's jacking of interest rates would likely cost Carter the election, but save the economy. Carter chose his country over personal gain

I try not to get into this part of the argument. Democrats can spin it and Republicans can spin it.... who made things better who made things worse. Each side has a version that gives them the credit from the great depression to 1982 to 1996 to 2009. For right now I'm only concerned that those in power are making decisions to benefit or malign the union.

(I remember reading that Reagan also changed the standards for measuring unemployment to make them look more generous to his administration, but I can't recall the details.)

" Despite the barrage of terrible employment figures, don’t expect the administration to back off its bold claim that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act is on pace to deliver its promised year-end 1 million jobs "created or saved." The Obama Administration has demonstrated a knack for clever grammatical constructions, and "created or saved" might be the most artful."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29265.html

Honestly, much of the "saved" jobs they're talking about are government jobs - not the same as real employment. AND, not even the same as "saved". What it means is they send money to a Democratic governor who is blowing it out his ass. In exchange for the extra cash, the governor agrees to say they would've fired this many people if he hadn't got the money. And our job is to take their word for it.

I just wanted to point this out since Reagan is often considered the "Great Savior" when his policies actually made things worse, and for a longer period, and because of all the pressure on Obama to deliver more in a shorter period of time from a far worse recession.

I'm very sure you remember I've stated not far above that I did say I'm not of the mind that he should deliver prosperity in this time frame, so I won't splinter off into contention there. I'm not saying I think he (or anyone) could've "fixed" things by this point... and realistically I don't think anyone really feels that way. Sure you may hear what I would call criticism OF the Democrats handling of the economy. This is not to say that I think he should have repaired it or worked a miracle. It means that I think what Democrats (and Republicans) are doing is making it worse. SO I disagree with the post someone wrote above saying that a year is too short a time to improve anything or make it worse. Keep in mind this is not a contradiction. The stimulus made it worse. Cap and Trade would make it worse. The health care overhaul would make it worse - put us further in debt, drive our spending far out of control, and blown 800 billion dollars on what has ultimately amounted to political favors. They have so far made the hole deeper - by all means they have made it deeper. By all means they intend to dig it deeper still. This is another great article I have been meaning to share with all you folks on the forum:

Unlike the federal government, states cannot deny reality by borrowing without limit. The Obama administration's "stimulus" package in effect shared the use of Uncle Sam's printing press for two years. But after that money runs out, the states will be back where they were. Even if Congress goes for a second round of stimulus funding, driven by the political panic of bankrupt Democratic governors, it would only postpone the reckoning.

The time to plan and debate is now. This is a test of our adulthood as a democracy. Washington, as long as our Chinese lenders enable it, can practice denial for a while longer. But for states the real world is about to arrive.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 39642.html

[Henry Vilas]

(I remember reading that Reagan also changed the standards for measuring unemployment to make them look more generous to his administration, but I can't recall the details.)

What I do remember is that prior to the Reagan administration, unemployment compensation was tax free. Reagan asked the GOP controlled Congress to tax it as ordinary income and they obliged.

[jonnygothispen]

The stimulus made it worse. Cap and Trade would make it worse. The health care overhaul would make it worse - put us further in debt, drive our spending far out of control, and blown 800 billion dollars on what has ultimately amounted to political favors. They have so far made the hole deeper - by all means they have made it deeper. By all means they intend to dig it deeper still.

I think that what you pointed out would be something of a misnomer w/o including the bank bailouts we're on the hook for- $17.5 trillion now. As we witnessed the speed at which these larger bailouts passed in Congress without much debate, excusing greed and mismanagement, socializing their losses, both parties are dependent on, and more loyal too their campaign donors than the US economy or the taxpayers. Yet you saw the media focus on the stimulus package spending that's over 20 times smaller than the bailout money/guarantees. Nothing else comes remotely close to the bank bailouts.

You should also recall that Bush stopped giving billions back to the states in 2001/2, half of the inheritance tax revenue, and cut federal funds for state infrastructure programs. But he kept the "death tax" and spent the $'s elsewhere.