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Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:30 pm

Well, Igor, something is beginning to crack-
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/po ... ch-bishops

We will see where this goes, but I suspect it will go...

Can one patent/own fresh air?

I bet some think they should,
This is not good.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:27 pm

I need to confess that I have thought about the significance of the Pontiff more in the last 6 months than in my entire life.

More seriously, I need to confess that I have experienced glee over watching the apostles of hyper capital/empire wriggle and squirm.

With so much pain, suffering, and death that has been brought,
To gloat serves no purpose of good.

I beg for forgiveness,
And the ability to be a better servant of good.

RIP - Nelson Mandela
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:48 am

Igor,
Your sceptism is well placed -
http://ccrjustice.org/pdf/CRC%20Supplem ... 202013.pdf

We might recognize this as what it is.
A very old organization of human endevour working through very old problems surrounding human failings.

I am curious whether this will be settled.
I hope it can.
These 'problems' belie the strength that otherwise might be realized.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby fennel » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:45 pm

Atheists are good if they do good. I bet this has got the Opus Deities up in arms.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:53 pm

fennel wrote:Atheists are good if they do good. I bet this has got the Opus Deities up in arms.

Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard for atheists to do good.
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/12/19/ ... -rebuffed/
Seriously, how fucked up is this?
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby wack wack » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:56 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard for atheists to do good.
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/12/19/ ... -rebuffed/
Seriously, how fucked up is this?


Anyone looking for proof that atheists are generally "better" people than Christians need look no further than this article.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:21 pm

I love this Huff Post article.

What Jesus Says About Homosexuality
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Igor » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:06 pm

wack wack wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard for atheists to do good.
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/12/19/ ... -rebuffed/
Seriously, how fucked up is this?


Anyone looking for proof that atheists are generally "better" people than Christians need look no further than this article.


What do you think most people would say is the number one activity of atheist organizations ? I realize the group in the article may be trying to change that perception, but most people would say "lawsuits". A government entity in particular would be unwise to accept such a donation without at least consulting their legal team.

I also find it hard to believe that there was no way to donate time or money to the various causes without it being under the auspices of the atheist group - but I suspect that was the point.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:22 pm

Igor wrote:What do you think most people would say is the number one activity of atheist organizations ? I realize the group in the article may be trying to change that perception, but most people would say "lawsuits".
It's hardly the fault of atheists if religious people have a biased view of them. There are lots of irreligious organizations around the world, most of which have never been involved in any lawsuits. And yes, I realize not all of these groups are strictly atheistic, but still, I think it's clear that the goal of most irreligious groups is the same as most religious ones -- to bond with others who share a similar worldview -- not to be litigious.

Igor wrote: A government entity in particular would be unwise to accept such a donation without at least consulting their legal team.
And yet they have no problem accepting donations from religous groups, despite the obvious conflict given that there's supposed to be a separation of church and state? Seems to me the government should only be accepting donations from non-religious groups.

Igor wrote: I also find it hard to believe that there was no way to donate time or money to the various causes without it being under the auspices of the atheist group - but I suspect that was the point.
Surely you don't apply the same standard to people who donate their time and money under the auspices of their religious group, right? So why the double standard? It's as if you're suggesting that the religious have a monopoly on charity. Besides, nothing in that article suggested to me that any of the atheist groups were trying to get publicity for themselves, they were simply trying to donate money and perform acts of kindness; it was the religious who made an issue of their atheism.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Igor » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:58 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Igor wrote: A government entity in particular would be unwise to accept such a donation without at least consulting their legal team.
And yet they have no problem accepting donations from religous groups, despite the obvious conflict given that there's supposed to be a separation of church and state? Seems to me the government should only be accepting donations from non-religious groups.


I suspect that government entities *do* think twice about getting donations from religious groups. It is also a little disingenuous to equate an anti-religious group to a non-religious one.

Igor wrote: I also find it hard to believe that there was no way to donate time or money to the various causes without it being under the auspices of the atheist group - but I suspect that was the point.
Surely you don't apply the same standard to people who donate their time and money under the auspices of their religious group, right? So why the double standard? It's as if you're suggesting that the religious have a monopoly on charity. Besides, nothing in that article suggested to me that any of the atheist groups were trying to get publicity for themselves, they were simply trying to donate money and perform acts of kindness; it was the religious who made an issue of their atheism.[/quote]

I make no claim that religious people have a monopoly on charity, and I don't think that atheists are not charitable. The post to which I responded indicated that the story was "proof" that atheists are better people than Christians.

People of all creeds/colors/etc. are unfairly grouped in all sorts of situations. If I were to categorize all atheists as "some dude that responds to Facebook posts of 'Happy Easter!' with a comment about 'Jeebus' or 'Zombie Jesus', that would be unfair. (And trust me, I know that guy)

Maybe some of the potential recipients were indeed hostile. Maybe some were suspicious of the motives of the group. In the case of the people that were victims of the crimes committed by atheists, maybe that was just too close of a connection (for one of the two victims, anyway). But I don't think it is fair to say "it is really tough for atheists to donate/volunteer". I know an atheist that helped with our Cub Scout group, and there are doubtless atheists that help with both food pantries that I work with. (both of which have religious ties)
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:49 pm

Igor wrote:The post to which I responded indicated that the story was "proof" that atheists are better people than Christians.
Yeah, I winced at that too. I certainly don't believe this. Good-hearted people come in all stripes.

Igor wrote:In the case of the people that were victims of the crimes committed by atheists, maybe that was just too close of a connection (for one of the two victims, anyway).
What does this refer to? What crimes?

Igor wrote:But I don't think it is fair to say "it is really tough for atheists to donate/volunteer".
I agree, and I never said that. I simply said that "sometimes it's hard for atheists to do good" and posted an article detailing some examples. There are plenty of religious groups who have had their donations turned down too. But it makes sense to me that certain groups, either governmental or otherwise public, would shy away from appearing to endorse a particular religion by accepting donations. Atheism isn't a religion, so there shouldn't be any conflict. Which brings me to this:
Igor wrote:It is also a little disingenuous to equate an anti-religious group to a non-religious one.
Who did that?
Atheism isn't anti-religious; it's areligious. It has nothing to do with religion. That's kinda the whole point of atheism. Any particular atheist might be anti-religious in their views (I am, certainly, but then, I don't belong to any atheist organizations) but atheism is simply an umbrella term for non-belief. I'm sure some of the groups in the wiki link I posted are anti-religious, but I didn't get the impression that any of the groups cited in the article I posted are. There's a very wide gap between "I have no religious beliefs" and "I am against all religious beliefs." It's certainly wider than the gap between any two religious beliefs, the conflicting viewpoints of which have been one of the leading causes of human misery throughout history.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Igor » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:33 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Igor wrote:In the case of the people that were victims of the crimes committed by atheists, maybe that was just too close of a connection (for one of the two victims, anyway).
What does this refer to? What crimes?


In the article that you linked, two of the potential charity recipients were (IIRC) a clergyman that was beaten by an atheist and a church that was subjected to atheist graffiti. One of the two declined the donation, while the other accepted it.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: But it makes sense to me that certain groups, either governmental or otherwise public, would shy away from appearing to endorse a particular religion by accepting donations. Atheism isn't a religion, so there shouldn't be any conflict.


I think here is where we are just not going to agree. If "warning alarms" should be set off when a local church makes a donation to a governmental group, the same level of alarms should be set off if an atheist group makes a similar donation. I'm perfectly willing to discuss what level of alarm should be set off, from Defcon 1-5; the point is that it should be the same for both.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Igor wrote:It is also a little disingenuous to equate an anti-religious group to a non-religious one.
Who did that?
Atheism isn't anti-religious; it's areligious. It has nothing to do with religion.


There has to be *some* simple term that can draw a distinction between the local soccer team and the local atheist organization. I think we can both agree that there is a difference between the two from a first amendment perspective.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:00 am

Igor wrote:I think here is where we are just not going to agree. If "warning alarms" should be set off when a local church makes a donation to a governmental group, the same level of alarms should be set off if an atheist group makes a similar donation.

I don't understand why. We have a separation of church and state in this country. There is no separation of state and not-believing-something, nor does it make any sense why there should be.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:There has to be *some* simple term that can draw a distinction between the local soccer team and the local atheist organization. I think we can both agree that there is a difference between the two from a first amendment perspective.
I only agree if the organization in question is actively proselytizing, i.e. trying to get others to join them in their unbelief. But that's not what most atheist groups do, just as local soccer teams aren't trying to convert everyone into soccer players. I'm sorry, but there's a really big misunderstanding in this country about what being an atheist is, and your comments seem to me like a good example of that problem. Atheism isn't a belief in anything at all, so I don't see where a conflict should arise. Atheism has no agenda. It's not even really a thing and there's no good reason why there's even a word for it. What do you call someone who doesn't believe in Zeus? Or someone who doesn't believe in centaurs? Or someone who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny? A philatelist is someone who is a stamp collector, but there's no name for someone who doesn't collect stamps. Because not collecting stamps isn't a thing. Not believing in God is just one more thing some people don't do. It only seems like an important distinction to people who take God on faith and cannot fathom anyone not doing likewise (even though, as I already pointed out, they are equally atheistic about every other god ever dreamed up by humankind, so it shouldn't be such a big to-do.)
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Igor » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:21 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Igor wrote:I think here is where we are just not going to agree. If "warning alarms" should be set off when a local church makes a donation to a governmental group, the same level of alarms should be set off if an atheist group makes a similar donation.

I don't understand why. We have a separation of church and state in this country. There is no separation of state and not-believing-something, nor does it make any sense why there should be.


If a donor came forward and offered to rename Camp Randall to "Immaculate Heart of Mary Stadium", that would be viewed as a government statement on religion. Similarly, if the stadium were renamed "American Atheist" stadium, that should *also* be viewed as a government statement on religion.

It seems that you are trying to interpret "congress shall make no law" in the most expansive manner possible, while "free exercise thereof" is interpreted in the most narrow manner possible.
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:04 am

I don't know how many more times or ways I can say it: Atheism is not a religion.

Igor wrote:Similarly, if the stadium were renamed "American Atheist" stadium, that should *also* be viewed as a government statement on religion.
Considering no one has ever suggested such a thing -- nor, do I believe, would they ever -- this isn't much of an argument for anything. But I'm curious, what statement about religion do you think such a name would imply? Is Kentucky making a statement about pizza by naming their Louisville stadium after Papa John's, or are they merely honoring a donor? Is Minnesota actually endorsing TCF Bank over other banks or just admitting that they put up the funds to build the stadium? Since neither pizzas nor banks are religious institutions, it's frankly irrelevant. There can't be a violation of church and state if there's no religious belief in the equation. Since atheism is the very definition of "no religious belief", who or what does it need to be separated from, and why?
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