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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby lardheppus » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:43 pm

Remember_Me wrote:You do remember there was a bounty on this man's head, right?


I do remember that, the bounty specified "alive and unharmed".
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:46 pm

lardheppus wrote:
Remember_Me wrote:You do remember there was a bounty on this man's head, right?


I do remember that, the bounty specified "alive and unharmed".


I remember this.

Over the weekend, members of the New Black Panther Party showed just how tense the situation in the Trayvon Martin shooting has gotten: They offered a $10,000 bounty for the capture of George Zimmerman, who shot and killed the unarmed teenager.

The Orlando Sentinel reports that Mikhail Muhammad announced the reward during a protest on Saturday, and when a Sentinel reporter asked if he was inciting violence, Muhammad said, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."


Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth talk doesn't usually mean "alive and unharmed".
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:33 pm

lardheppus wrote:
Remember_Me wrote:You do remember there was a bounty on this man's head, right?


I do remember that, the bounty specified "alive and unharmed".


Ah, yes. As long as it only involves kidnapping it's okay, right?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:53 pm

Remember_Me wrote:I don't know what happened.


Remember_Me wrote:Zimmerman had the upper hand throughout this whole scenario simply by having a gun on his hip. He could have drew his weapon at any time and held Martin at bay with it.


Remember_Me wrote:But Zimmerman still kept his weapon holstered until he was left with no choice but to use it out of fear for his life.


So despite not knowing what happened, you apparently know what happened...

Remember_Me wrote:Who calls the police, expecting them there at any moment, and then goes to start a fight with someone anyway?


An idiot?

Here is the thing, I'm perfectly willing to wait to see the results of the court findings to proclaim that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Of course if he gets off on a technicality, I'm also not going to believe he is absolutely innocent either.

But there are facts that are absolutely known:

1) Zimmerman had a vehicle he could have remained inside of greatly reducing any chance of being attacked,
2) Zimmerman chose to leave the vehicle and to follow (his own words) Martin despite having no pressing need to do so (There has never been any evidence put forth that he saw Martin engaging in a criminal activity)
3) Zimmerman made that choice despite being told there was no need for him to do so (because he had called the police already to deal with it)
4) Because of his choices Zimmerman ended up shooting and killing Martin

Based on those facts alone, I can't fairly judge that Zimmerman murdered Martin, however, I can judge that he is an idiot. It has not legal binding of course, but he made several stupid decisions that lead to the death of an innocent teenager. So you ask who would call the police then get into an altercation with someone they have decided is suspicious? An idiot, and sorry but George Zimmerman seems to fit that bill.

If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently he could have done one of two very simple things.
1) Make a phone call to the police from his vehicle. Stay in said vehicle and wait for the police to arrive.
2) Or if he absolutely had to get hand on (and he didn't) he could simply have walked up to Martin, identified himself(and his role as neighborhood watch captain), explained the situation and ask Martin who he was, and what he was doing there.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:23 am

"2) Zimmerman chose to leave the vehicle and to follow (his own words) Martin despite having no pressing need to do so (There has never been any evidence put forth that he saw Martin engaging in a criminal activity)"

No, but suspicious activity. Why would one only respond to outright criminal activity? From Zimmerman's 911 call: "He is was just staring... looking at all the houses." "Now he's just staring at me." "Now he's coming towards me."

"3) Zimmerman made that choice despite being told there was no need for him to do so (because he had called the police already to deal with it)"

You're assuming that Zimmerman continued to follow after being told he didn't need to do so. I say "assuming" since there's no evidence to back up your assertion which you call "a fact" "absolutely known."

"4) Because of his choices Zimmerman ended up shooting and killing Martin"

Well there were certainly choices being made by both parties that night, right? Why focus only on those made by one of them?


"If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently...
... he could simply have walked up to Martin, identified himself(and his role as neighborhood watch captain), explained the situation and ask Martin who he was, and what he was doing there."

Your so-called "intelligent handling" of the situation would have been quite foolish to attempt. From the Zimmerman 911 call just after he reported that Martin was coming towards him: "He's got his hand in his waistband." The waistband is a place where criminals frequently carry weapons. And you're suggesting that Zimmerman should have walked up to him?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:43 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
"If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently...
... he could simply have walked up to Martin, identified himself(and his role as neighborhood watch captain), explained the situation and ask Martin who he was, and what he was doing there."


Your so-called "intelligent handling" of the situation would have been quite foolish to attempt. From the Zimmerman 911 call just after he reported that Martin was coming towards him: "He's got his hand in his waistband." The waistband is a place where criminals frequently carry weapons. And you're suggesting that Zimmerman should have walked up to him?


Your select quoting is telling. You left out this:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently he could have done one of two very simple things.
1) Make a phone call to the police from his vehicle. Stay in said vehicle and wait for the police to arrive.
2) Or if he absolutely had to get hand on (and he didn't) ...
(emphasis mine).

Francis made clear that confronting Martin should have been a last resort. And not because Martin might be carrying a gun(*) . But because that's really the the role of cops.

(*)Its also telling that you think a guy sticking his hands in his waistband means he might be reaching for a gun. If you were a real man, you'd know it was much more likely he's just scratching his balls.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:39 pm

DCB wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
"If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently...
... he could simply have walked up to Martin, identified himself(and his role as neighborhood watch captain), explained the situation and ask Martin who he was, and what he was doing there."


Your so-called "intelligent handling" of the situation would have been quite foolish to attempt. From the Zimmerman 911 call just after he reported that Martin was coming towards him: "He's got his hand in his waistband." The waistband is a place where criminals frequently carry weapons. And you're suggesting that Zimmerman should have walked up to him?


Your select quoting is telling. You left out this:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:If Zimmerman had wanted to handle the situation intelligently he could have done one of two very simple things.
1) Make a phone call to the police from his vehicle. Stay in said vehicle and wait for the police to arrive.
2) Or if he absolutely had to get hand on (and he didn't) ...
(emphasis mine).

Francis made clear that confronting Martin should have been a last resort. And not because Martin might be carrying a gun(*) . But because that's really the the role of cops.

(*)Its also telling that you think a guy sticking his hands in his waistband means he might be reaching for a gun. If you were a real man, you'd know it was much more likely he's just scratching his balls.


I edited the quote for brevity, it did not change the meaning. He said there were two intelligent options. One of them was for Zimmerman to directly approach Martin. Try to tell us that's not what he said. The words are right there.

Secondly, if you were a real man you'd have an understanding of how criminals operate. Why don't you ask the police if they think "he's more than likely scratching his balls" when a suspect or unknown approaching individual reaches in their waistband. That's certainly not how they're trained to think.

These studies have found that criminals very rarely use holsters for guns. Why don't you write to the FBI and tell them they're full of shit?

Pinizzotto, Anthony J.; Davis, Edward F.; and Miller, Charles E. (2006). Dead right: Recognizing traits of armed individuals. FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, 75(3), pp. 1-8.


Pinizzotto, Anthony J., Davis, Edward F., and Miller, Charles E. (2006). Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Justice.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:52 pm

Zimmerman's lie about his assests doesn't bode well for his credibility. I doubt if his attorney will allow him to testify at his trial, as his cross examination would be brutal.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:29 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Zimmerman's lie about his assests doesn't bode well for his credibility. I doubt if his attorney will allow him to testify at his trial, as his cross examination would be brutal.


Which Zimmerman do you mean? George or Shellie?

If you want to see George Zimmerman's testimony at his bond hearing I can provide a link for you. He says nothing about his assets (nor his "assests"). The prosecutor claims George's wife, Shellie lied when she said she didn't know how much money had been raised on the website.

Good thing you're not called as a witness in this case, Henry. Your lies would be difficult to explain, wouldn't they?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:07 pm

Thanks for point out my typo, DMan. You are very good at that.

Are you saying that Martin had no knowledge of his assets, as he had to answer truthfully about them (through his lawyer) to make bail? Was his wife lying to him and he had no idea about the hundred thou or so they possessed?

Your pro bono defense of Zimmerman is full of holes.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:26 pm

Following this story, I've started thinking any neighborhood watch program should have a protocol for its members to follow when they see someone they regard as suspicious. Possibly the Florida program didn't -- I haven't seen any information about this point.

Here is a short discussion of the protocol issue:

http://www.thecrimereport.org/archive/2 ... watch-prot

And here's what appears to be one neighborhood's protocol, which calls for actions quite unlike what GZ carried out. First off, it suggests its members work in pairs.

http://www.ddowatch.com/2009/03/patrol- ... stips.html

I don't know anything about the source or veracity of this document -- I'm just putting it up for discussion. Where's the 514 area code located?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Stebben84 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:38 pm

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/upl ... ?mobile=nc

Read number 10 and 17. That does not look good Dman. His wife may have lied, but he was a willing participant.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Detritus » Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:51 pm

snoqueen wrote:I don't know anything about the source or veracity of this document -- I'm just putting it up for discussion. Where's the 514 area code located?

Montreal. But there is an overarching organization for neighborhood watches in the US put together by the National Sheriff's Association that helps neighborhoods establish, train, and maintain watch organizations. They have an extensive website that includes downloadable manuals. In the section on "Neighborhood Watch Skills" in the watch manual, it specifically says:
REMEMBER: Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

As I remember, however, the watch in Zimmerman's neighborhood was neither registered with the Sheriff's Association, nor was it trained by them.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:44 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
I edited the quote for brevity, it did not change the meaning. He said there were two intelligent options. One of them was for Zimmerman to directly approach Martin. Try to tell us that's not what he said. The words are right there.

I'm pretty sure Francis was trying to say
"There really was no reason at all for Zimmerman to approach Martin. It was a bad idea. But if for some weird reason he felt compelled to confront him, this is what he should have said".

But I'll leave it up to Francis to decide if either you or I are distorting his post.

In any case, I think we all agree that Zimmerman should not have confronted Martin. And yet at some point Zimmerman leaves the safety of his car, even though the police have told him they are on the way. Why does he do that?

Martin's girlfriend says she hears Martin saying "why are you following me?". I'm assuming that means Zimmerman. Why was Zimmerman following him?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:48 pm

As I remember, however, the watch in Zimmerman's neighborhood was neither registered with the Sheriff's Association, nor was it trained by them.


Do we know if there was anyone else in it besides George Zimmerman?
Seriously.
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