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What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby peripat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Now I get the 'conservative' viewpoint...from cradle to grave they tell you what to do and how to do it, but you pay for it all yourself.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby snoqueen » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:12 pm

You want to be monetarily rewarded for having sex. How is that not a form of prostitution?


Oh, you silly man. Nobody's monetarily rewarding anyone for having sex. We're suggesting insurance incentives toward healthy behaviors, which include but are not limited to having a healthy sex life, getting regular exercise, and eating more whole fruits and vegetables. The idea is to reduce illness and in that way reduce healthcare costs, which one hopes would mean a reduction in our healthcare premiums.

What that's got to do with prostitution is beyond me. I don't think you believe half the stuff you write, quite frankly. And the quote above is in the doesn't-believe half.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:29 pm

snoqueen wrote:We're suggesting insurance incentives toward healthy behaviors, which include but are not limited to having a healthy sex life

"insurance incentives" = "monetary rewards"
Face it, you're suggesting people receive monetary rewards from the government for having more sex. Money for sex. Federal government - pimp. All of us - its sexed-up little whores.
What's not to believe half of?
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby fennel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:38 pm

Meade wrote:"insurance incentives" = "monetary rewards"

And why should health insurance cover a coronary bypass? Do we really need to be paying people to eat bacon?
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:43 pm

The government is giving us monetary rewards? Sign me up for this government funded health care.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Ducatista » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:05 pm

"Birth control = more sex" is such a lamebrained guy perspective. That may be how it works for you, Captain Condom, but extending that logic to a woman on the pill (or Depo or whatever) is just moronic.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:18 pm

Ducatista wrote:"Birth control = more sex" is such a lamebrained guy perspective.

Came from snoqueen who got it from Rickert.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby acereraser » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:42 pm

Meade wrote:
snoqueen wrote:We're suggesting insurance incentives toward healthy behaviors, which include but are not limited to having a healthy sex life

"insurance incentives" = "monetary rewards"
Face it, you're suggesting people receive monetary rewards from the government for having more sex. Money for sex. Federal government - pimp. All of us - its sexed-up little whores.
What's not to believe half of?


I don't agree with your equation, but beyond that, do you really see sexual behavior as being separate and distinct from all other human (among other animals) behaviors? Why do you frame sex as dirty? Look at your choice of language, "pimp" and "sexed-up little whores". I understand that you want to defend Limbaugh and the other angry men, but is that how you really feel? Mother Nature can stuff it with that innate desire to pass along our genes nonsense? It is no wonder at all that abstinence alone does little to reduce teen pregnancy numbers.

We got to the moon, but we are still under the thumb of the Puritans regarding sex.

One more thing; like I said, I don't agree with you equation, but your logic is faulty about monetary rewards for more sex. If a woman is using birth control pills for contraception, covered by insurance or not, the amount of sex she has is irrelevant to the cost of the medication.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:02 pm

acereraser wrote:Mother Nature can stuff it with that innate desire to pass along our genes nonsense?

Well, yes, I do understand that is the argument against contraception - that we should just act natural, have a lot of sex, and procreate a lot. And it made economic sense back in the old agrarian days and before. But modern life calls for more restraint. It costs a lot of money to have even one child.
acereraser wrote:If a woman is using birth control pills for contraception, covered by insurance or not, the amount of sex she has is irrelevant to the cost of the medication.

Not quite true. For instance, from a cost/benefit standpoint, it makes no sense for a woman having sex only once a month to be on the pill. In her case, condoms are the better bargain. Also, a woman having sex with multiple partners needs to be using condoms anyway, right? So if she's using condoms at $1 per pop, why waste money on birth control pills?
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Once a month? For a married couple?
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby acereraser » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:58 pm

Thanks for your reply, Meade, but I don't think you quite followed my reasoning. First off, again, why do you frame sex as dirty?

Secondly, I wasn't saying our natural desire to have sex (pass along genetic information) is an argument against contraception. Rather, it is an argument for it. We should be able to understand that people, like other animals, are driven to have sex for reasons that come from somewhere beneath our higher brain activities, and it is foolish to think we can block those desires abjectly without consequences. You are right, modern life calls for more restraint, and with modern contraception we can safely limit the amount of procreation. Just telling folks not to do it is willful ignorance.

Lastly, I don't accept your refutation of my refutation of your more money for more sex notion. You didn't just miss my point, you dodged it. Using multiple concurrent methods of contraception will always be more successful, but that wasn't why you mentioned multiple partners. What about committed monogamous partners who aren't ready to procreate yet? Or, for that matter, what about a premenopausal married woman who feels her days to safely procreate are behind her? Sometimes, work is hectic, folks get tired. Other times, not so much.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby Ducatista » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:34 pm

Meade wrote:Came from snoqueen who got it from Rickert.

Nice try, but Rush started the party with his more sex = more birth control bit, referring to coeds who were having "so much sex that they're going broke."

Meade wrote:For instance, from a cost/benefit standpoint, it makes no sense for a woman having sex only once a month to be on the pill. In her case, condoms are the better bargain.

Man, what you don't know about women is a lot. The benefits of the pill/patch/Depo go way beyond per-bang pregnancy prevention. They extend to things like easing symptoms of dysmenorrhea and endometriosis, and serving as a backup in case of barrier contraceptive malfunction. And they're more effective than condoms, so they're a more responsible choice for a sexually active woman who doesn't want to get pregnant—either on their own for a woman in a monogamous relationship, or in conjunction with condoms for a woman with multiple sexual partners.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby snoqueen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:13 am

And nobody's paying the woman anything, if you go back and read. The idea is to pay the manufacturer of birth control pills or devices for its products, and medical care providers for their services. The woman doesn't get a cent.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby kurt_w » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:16 am

Meade wrote:"insurance incentives" = "monetary rewards"
Face it, you're suggesting people receive monetary rewards from the government for having more sex. Money for sex. Federal government - pimp. All of us - its sexed-up little whores.
What's not to believe half of?


Meade is wrong here. Aceraser already pointed this out, but I wanted to highlight it.

Assume that your insurance company reimburses you for the purchase of contraception. Consider the following questions:

a. If you have sex without contraception, do you get paid? No.
b. If you purchase contraception but don't have sex, do you get paid? Yes.
c. Are you being paid to have sex? No.

It is true that increased access to contraceptives might indirectly increase the likelihood of people having sex. Neither Meade nor Rush Limbaugh has shown this. An alternative hypothesis is that people will have sex anyway, and access to contraceptives merely reduces the rate of unwanted pregnancies.

But even if you assume that subsidizing contraceptives does indirectly lead to people having more sex, that does not imply that people are "prostitutes" or that insurance companies or the government are the clients of prostitutes. There are probably all sorts of things that indirectly increase or decrease people's likelihood of having sex. If people are more likely to have sex when they're on vacation, does that turn everyone whose company offers paid vacation into a prostitute?

Meade is just plain wrong. Like Rush Limbaugh, Meade has been seduced by the pleasure of being able to publicly call one's opponents "whores".

No one is suggesting that insurance companies or the government should actually and directly pay people for having sex. That would be a stupid idea.

Instead, the suggestion is that insurance companies and/or the government should encourage people to be prudent. Unwanted pregnancies impose significant financial costs on the country. Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies would reduce those costs.

It is thus economically efficient for society to subsidize the cost of contraception at least up to the amount that it saves in medical and other expenses. I say "at least" because there is widespread agreement on other, non-monetary benefits of reducing the rate of unwanted pregnancies: it leads to fewer abortions [which should make conservatives happy], reduces single-parenthood [which should make conservatives happy], and reduces the risk of child abuse [which should make everyone happy]. Unwanted pregnancies, of course, are also typically a cause of stress and unhappiness in individuals' lives, so reducing them would lead to a general improvement in happiness and mental health.

So there are many reasons, both financial and otherwise, why it is in the country's interest to promote access to contraceptives.
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Re: What's the "grave moral wrong" of birth control?

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:31 am

The best part about this whole "debate" is the hoards of women voters being turned away from voting Republican. Keep it up geniuses!
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