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What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Stomach » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:35 pm

snoqueen wrote:Look around here for some great examples. We have people posting who plainly can't put together two sentences or two thoughts about their belief systems, their political and social philosophies, their intended goals (beyond world domination, of course), their beliefs about political economics, or much of anything. But they're voters, they're energized, and apparently they've got a whole lot of company if you look at the election results. Somebody's got their number, and it isn't somebody who's looking out for their interests. It's somebody who knows how to play them.


Great post, I particularly like this paragraph.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:33 am

Because if you don't want to feather the government's nest you are being played. Don't the peasants know paying taxes is good for them and more taxes are even better? California doesn't treat their government employees this way and they have high speed rail and sunshine!
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:36 am

snoqueen wrote:Elections are run on very sophisticated social engineering these days, and I think the utterly cynical Republican party has taken that engineering to extreme levels. They know not only how to divide and conquer, but also how to keep people whipped up over nothing, how to create a sense of team membership through creating a mutual enemy, and how to engage attention at a deep emotional level well beyond rational thinking.


This is all perfectly true. But you also have to recognize the tremendous cultural advantage the REpublicans have: America is built upon a mythology of individualism. Divide and Conquor works great because we don't have a strong social fabric. I'm not saying it hasn't changed, won't change more down the road.

Damn interesting article about NY State, the most unionized state, by far, in the country. There is a growing rift between public and private unions:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/nyreg ... ement.html

In that article, it glibly said that public-private unions stuck together in Wisconsin. BS. That may be true nominally, but I bet nearly all of those 39% of union households who voted for Walker are not teachers or other public sector employees.

The 99% versus 1% mantra is true in some senses, but we have many more economic/cultural fissures at play. White men of lower education levels believe strongly in rugged individualism, they hate Obama, they hate government even though they may be in perilous financial straits themselves, and above all they resent poor people who they view as leeches. WI is chock-full of people in this category.

I still would rather be holding the Dems cards rather than Republicans for the long term. The Divide-and-Conquer tricks are playing to a shrinking pool.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby wack wack » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Because if you don't want to feather the government's nest you are being played. Don't the peasants know paying taxes is good for them and more taxes are even better? California doesn't treat their government employees this way and they have high speed rail and sunshine!


Played.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Stomach » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:36 am

Perhaps better for a new topic "What Will We Learn in 2014?" but I like this thread.

- Will "union thugs" continue to be the boogeyman?
- Will Barrett run again? (kidding)
- Will there be another record turn out of voters?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Donald » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:27 pm

One thing I learned long ago is that some people get all emotional after a defeat. They want to find someone to blame, someone to fire, somewhere to vent. Others simply get burned out physically or emotionally, and don't want to engage for a while. That's fine, as long as you don't take your eyes off the prize.

I look at a defeat or a victory as just one step in the process. You learn from it and go on.

Besides, this wasn't a total defeat. We won a Senate seat, which will check Walker. Walker and his billionaire buddies may want to drop some more "bwombs," but will be nearly impossible for him to succeed for the next 6 months.

We have another election in November, where the stakes are very high. We are going to have to figure out a way to beat them. I don't think you do that by getting all emotional or dropping out.

Good suggestions are needed, but pity parties and witch hunts aren't, unless you want to hand the country over to the extreme right.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Mad Howler » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:26 pm

1) I could say "not a f"(#n thing" but that would be untrue.
2) I might come to realize that we all need time to come to a rational frame under fire.
3) All of us should remember Zappa's warning, almost scrubbed out of our collective conscience but not quite:
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Brok ... r_Assholes
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:27 am

"Besides, this wasn't a total defeat. We won a Senate seat, which will check Walker."
Donald

1.) The legislature is out of session and does not reconvene until after the next election.

2). "The Barrett vote was so highly concentrated in just two counties that, while he managed to stay within seven percentage points, he only carried 12 of the state's 72 counties.
This result paints a challenging picture for legislative Democrats hoping to hold on to the State Senate and win the state assembly.
Consider this fact: Scott Walker on Tuesday night won 53% of the vote. Yet under the new redistricting map he won 66 of the 99 assembly districts and 23 of the 33 state senate districts. In other words, he received 53% of the vote but won 67% of the districts. Some may assert this is due to the map being "gerrymandered," but they would be wrong.
The true answer lies in Walker's breadth of victory and Barrett's heavy dependence on Dane and Milwaukee counties. Thirty percent of the statewide vote for Barrett came out of Dane County and the City of Milwaukee. Yet those two population centers make up only 19 assembly districts. Put another way, the Democratic areas of the state are so concentrated that it makes it hard for the Democratic party to win a majority of districts even though Wisconsin is a 50-50 state."
http://www.reinhartlaw.com/Publications/Documents/ea20120607_GR.pdf

Check!
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:10 pm

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby bdog » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:37 pm

snoqueen wrote:Elections are run on very sophisticated social engineering these days, and I think the utterly cynical Republican party has taken that engineering to extreme levels. They know not only how to divide and conquer, but also how to keep people whipped up over nothing, how to create a sense of team membership through creating a mutual enemy, and how to engage attention at a deep emotional level well beyond rational thinking. All this stuff comes from applied social and psychological research, which is available to anybody but is being used as a tool -- with the results to show it works -- by just one party.

I'm preserving this quote so it can't be denied or changed later.

Used as a tool by only 1 party? You do realize there is a whole thread devoted to the Dem's use of this tactic (the now infamous Greater Wisconsin Committee mailer)?

And Alinsky literally wrote the book on this kind of stuff.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Donald » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:37 pm

Check. No special sessions to push extremist legislation.

Check. Any required budget "repairs" will need buy ins from Democrats.

Check. Democrats in the Senate can initiate studies and oversight on executive rulemaking and policy.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:38 pm

I hope we can stand the excitement.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Donald » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:09 pm

Huh?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Mad Howler » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:07 pm

bdog wrote:I'm preserving this quote so it can't be denied or changed later.

Used as a tool by only 1 party? You do realize there is a whole thread devoted to the Dem's use of this tactic (the now infamous Greater Wisconsin Committee mailer)?

And Alinsky literally wrote the book on this kind of stuff.


I didn't see much in sno's quote that I can argue with. Is this business not sitting well with you?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/ ... K720120608

Check and mate to your "side", although on one point I disagree. In the ancient reading it is 'divide and rule'.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:33 pm

I think it's impossible to judge Wisconsin's electorate when our mainstream media and the Koch fueled political ads presents so many falsehoods as facts. The National media only parroted what the campaigns said as well. Just raw conjecture on Walker's behalf with little to no in depth analysis. Even when presented with the facts according to Wisconsin's CBO, the LFB, WSJ decided to lie and lie some more about Walker's budget.

I used to wonder why people called it the "Urinal" when I moved here in 2002. No more.
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