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It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:57 pm

lukpac wrote:If "life is life", then the consequences for taking the morning after pill should be no different than a mother killer her 10 year old child, right?


Answered at paragraphs #10 & 11 above.

Now you answer some questions: Abortion the day before delivery? Penalized or not?

Ending the life of the child one day after delivery? Penalized or not?

Why?
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby snoqueen » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:30 pm

The question, however, remains unanswered. That question is "When is abortion permissible; when is it not?" It is conclusive that Justice Blackmun himself called his trimester system "arbitrary." ...

If you don't know the answers to these questions -- and, in essence, you admit that you do not, please don't criticize the pro-life stand. Pro-lifers have thought this through and come to the conclusion that life starts at the beginning!


This is actually kind of helpful in getting some insight into the world on the other side from which Blaska writes.

In that world there are no gray areas, no individual unique circumstances, and really no personal choice. There are rules.

On the other side, there is personal choice, there are LOTS of gray areas, there is subtlety, there are unique circumstances. A 13 year old who barely understands she's pregnant but was raped by her father is just not in the same circumstances as a 45-year old woman with a non-viable fetus or an addicted person who has reason to believe she'll give birth to a cocaine baby and doesn't want to.

Women are individuals and, to be completely fair, so are doctors.

But all your side sees is: did a sperm meet an egg?? No going back, no way out, nothing else matters.

Look, if that's your world, you're free to live in it as long as you please. It's not my world and, really, it's not the world of modern medical ethics where lists of pro and con arguments are offered to help someone think through where she stands on any medical issue (not just pregnancies).

I invited you to dig deeper and try to see why complexity is part of medicine and of the world. Do you really think it's fair to make a woman finish a pregnancy when it's got one huge eye, a misplaced nose, a brain with a single hemisphere instead of two, legs turned the wrong way, a heart with too few chambers to work, and numerous other deformities? Is that humane?

You won't look. All you've got is your binary right/wrong system. I think you're hiding behind it, quite frankly, because to peek out is to realize how messy the world really is.

I think this is where the discussion has to conclude because you won't acknowledge all these issues at all, let alone see the human side of difficult problems. People are not inherently bad or good, they're complex and life is confusing. That's part of what it means to be human, to me-- not whether you've got your own genetic code.

But making things super-simple in your own mind doesn't make the complexity of the real world go away. It's still right here, and the more rules you make the more people will break them because they're too small and don't fit.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:09 pm

David Blaska wrote:Answered at paragraphs #10 & 11 above.


"paragraphs #10 & 11 above"? Where?

David Blaska wrote:Now you answer some questions: Abortion the day before delivery? Penalized or not?

Ending the life of the child one day after delivery? Penalized or not?

Why?


Considering that you're the one that seems to want a change in the law (or at least doesn't disagree with a change), not me, how about you answer this first:

Abortion the day of fertilization? Penalized or not?

Abortion 8 1/2 months after fertilization? Penalized or not?

Why?
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:30 pm

lukpac wrote:Considering that you're the one that seems to want a change in the law (or at least doesn't disagree with a change), not me, how about you answer this first:

Abortion the day of fertilization? Penalized or not?

Abortion 8 1/2 months after fertilization? Penalized or not?

Why?


You first.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby butters » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:49 pm

If abortion is murder, then what penalty should be imposed on women who have abortions and on their doctors?

If abortion is murder, then we need to have a State system that identifies the women who are pregnant. If we don’t know who’s pregnant, then we won’t know who the lawbreakers are. This should include not only mandatory reporting to the State by any doctor who sees a pregnant patient and by retail stores who sell home pregnancy kits, but also mandatory reporting by any individual who missed a period. What should be the penalty for failing to alert the State of a missed period?

After they have been identified, periodic examinations need to be conducted to confirm that a woman is still pregnant and ensure that the baby is carried to term. The results of these mandatory examinations need to be reported to the State. If for whatever reason a woman miscarries, the details need to be investigated by the State to determine if the woman who miscarried should be charged with murder, voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, or if she is completely innocent in the death of her child. All miscarries should be entered into a database to determine if there are any repeat offenders. When their names appear on the State Pregnancy Registry, women with two or more miscarriages should be red flagged and subjected to even higher levels of scrutiny by the State.

This is just a start. As we roll out this system, I’m sure we will need to tweak it with more regulation, investigation, and enforcement. Because after all, we are talking about murder here.

We are also talking about massively expanding Big Government and its Big Brother… all brought to you by Conservatives and their less intrusive, small government ideology.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:04 pm

No go, LukPac; I asked first.
David Blaska wrote:Abortion the day before delivery? Penalized or not?

Ending the life of the child one day after delivery? Penalized or not?

Why?


Or are you waving (waiving) the question?
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby snoqueen » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:01 pm

And only absolute, black-and-white, yes-or-no answers will do, people. Questions with no details, answers with no nuance.

(He doesn't get why this kind of map has little or nothing to do with the actual territory: humanity.)

I would next like to see him discuss the enforcement mechanisms someone else brought up, since it's clear making rules like these invites nothing but rule-breaking.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby David Blaska » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:And only absolute, black-and-white, yes-or-no answers will do, people. Questions with no details, answers with no nuance.

[Blaska] doesn't get ...


Ahh! A change in tactics! Well done, Mr. Snoqueen!

snoqueen wrote:» Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:50 pm

All I want to know is whether David Blaska thinks abortion is murder. You won't find out. Blaska never gives straight answers to anything. He'll always cut corners and preserve deniability, so he can weasel out of it if someone comes up with a more powerful counter- argument.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Peanutbutter » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:26 pm

Since killing a 2 year old child is murder, then why don't we have a State system that identifies the women who have children? If we don’t know who has children, then we won’t know who the lawbreakers are. This should include not only mandatory reporting to the State by any doctor who sees a underage patient and by retail stores who sell kids toys, but also mandatory reporting by any babysitter who is suddenly no longer needed. What should be the penalty for failing to alert the State of child leaving the state for a vacation?

After they have been identified, periodic examinations need to be conducted to confirm that a woman still has kids and ensure that the baby reached adulthood. The results of these mandatory examinations need to be reported to the State.

This is just a start. As we roll out this system, I’m sure we will need to tweak it with more regulation, investigation, and enforcement. Because after all, we are talking about murder here.


:roll:
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:30 pm

Mr B, you claim that your Catholic religion dictates your position on abortion. I too was raised Catholic. I went to parachial schools from first grade to high school graduation. The official Catholic position is that abortion is always a sin, no matter what the reason. Rape, incest, even the life of the pregnant woman never trumps the right of the fertilized ovum. We even watched The Cardinal, a film in which the pregnant woman (sister of the Cardinal) is allowed to die, so that her fetus would survive.

Of course, the Catholic position goes even further than that, as it says sperm is also sacred (as it is living, with unique DNA). Onanism is similarly condemned as is all birth control.

Believe that if you must. But while I realize that Catholics are the largest religious group in the U.S., Catholic dogma should never dictate secular law. Otherwise the Handmaid's Tail becomes reality.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:36 pm

David Blaska wrote:No go, LukPac


No go? Huh? Is there some reason you responded to me, waited 34 minutes, then responded again? Is that just how you roll?

There's no such thing as "abortion the day before delivery", because if there's an abortion, there's no delivery to be a day before.

One day after delivery? Yes, penalized.

Why? In the former case we're talking about a fetus inside a woman's body. In the latter case we're talking about a baby.

Now your turn.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby Archipants » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 pm

David Blaska wrote:Ahh! A change in tactics! Well done, Mr. Snoqueen!


Is this guy for real? How is he still employed? Is this the best the Isthmus can do? I feel like I have witnessed a third-grader trying to have a debate with a grown-up.

Bottom of the barrel Blaska...
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby DCB » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:48 pm

David Blaska wrote:No go, LukPac; I asked first.
David Blaska wrote:Abortion the day before delivery? Penalized or not?

Ending the life of the child one day after delivery? Penalized or not?

Why?


* abortion - termination of a fetus - not penalized at all
* kill a born child - yes (with some exceptions )
* why? because a fetus is not a person

Now its your turn:
are in favor of changing the law?
why?
because you cling to a superstition understanding of 'life' that predates the scientific method?
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby bdog » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:29 pm

Ok buttfucks - I'm gonna go off the board here.

Human life is not precious. Seems like most of you believe in the concept of a "soul". If true, this means everlasting life is a given. We don't die, we just change. No big frickin' deal, right?

Unless you believe that only humans have souls. In which case, I would argue the more grevious offense is killing animals who you don't think have a soul. You're taking all they've got, and all they're ever gonna have.

Abortion? Whup-de fuck. Stepping on an ant? You should be put in cryogenic suspension for such an offense (killing you would do no good as your soul can never die).

Sound good?

Blaska is right. Snoqueen is right. I'm right.
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Re: It's time to Pass a Pro-Life Constitutional Amendment

Postby indycoyote » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:01 pm

Of course the right never considers penalizing a man if he should a)force the woman into an abortion, b)induce said abortion or c)pay for the abortion.....not to mention if his DNA is suspect and mother nature aborts.
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