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Postby doppel » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:49 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:You don't think the First Amendment says anything about participating in government? Last I checked, it protected the right "to petition the government for a redress of grievances."Maybe you've got a different edition.

But, you know, if you can equate your individual,personal decision to bay at the moon on a routine Tuesday with a sacred, time-certain ceremony that millions of people have followed for thousand of years(and millions have died for), well ...


Stu, There is only one edition of the 1st amendment. But, I don't think your right to petition is being trampled. A decision was made by someone or a group of people that a regularly scheduled eoc meeting would be postponed because of one religion's holiday. You seem to be saying that cancelling a meeting because of one religion's holiday is somehow protected by the peoples right "to petition the government for a redress of their grievances."

As far as who's 1st amendment's right to petition the government are being trampled, it would be those people whose input that didn't go before the commission, because the meeting was cancelled because of one religion's holiday. Their input never got passed to the common council, in a timely manner, because of one group's religious practices.

I can equate a personal decision to bay at the moon on a routine Tuesday night "with a sacred, time-certain ceremony that millions of people have followed for thousand of years (and millions have died for)." All decisions to practice a religion are personal. While I do not practice it, Moon worship is a lot older than any modern religion, and with its utimately time certain friend, the sun, many millions in history have died in its name, defending their god and their way of life. The numbers of deaths any religion suffers or inflicts, is more a function of its size, time on earth, and beliefs rather than of its sincerity, goodness or validity.

The reason I entered this forum was to protest the way miss Vicky implied it was unfair that the city didn't shut down "ahem",like the eoc did, because of Rosh Hashanah.
How can ONE city commission not meet on a business day because of one religion's holiday and then complain about being left out of the loop when the grinder of government goes on without their input? Perhaps they think the world doesn't spin around the sun, it just spins around the eoc.
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Postby Brenda Konkel » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:49 pm

doppel wrote:How can ONE city commission not meet on a business day because of one religion's holiday and then complain about being left out of the loop when the grinder of government goes on without their input? Perhaps they think the world doesn't spin around the sun, it just spins around the eoc.


This was in an APM signed by Mayor Sue Bauman that committees were not supposed to meet on these days. And the clerk, accordingly, sends out a memo every year reminding committees not to meet on this day. This wasn't a decision of the EOC. They were just following the rules.
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Postby nevermore » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:55 pm

doppel wrote:Stu, There is only one edition of the 1st amendment. But, I don't think your right to petition is being trampled. A decision was made by someone or a group of people that a regularly scheduled eoc meeting would be postponed because of one religion's holiday. You seem to be saying that cancelling a meeting because of one religion's holiday is somehow protected by the peoples right "to petition the government for a redress of their grievances." <SNIP>

Why am I suddenly hungry for pretzels?
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Postby VickySelkowe » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:19 pm

doppel wrote: The reason I entered this forum was to protest the way miss Vicky implied it was unfair that the city didn't shut down "ahem",like the eoc did, because of Rosh Hashanah.
How can ONE city commission not meet on a business day because of one religion's holiday and then complain about being left out of the loop when the grinder of government goes on without their input? Perhaps they think the world doesn't spin around the sun, it just spins around the eoc.


1. Not really a case where a commission just wanted to give input and the "grinder of government" went on without it. EOC had been asked twice by Council to give input and we had also been asked by the Mayor's office to not do so until we had a final version of the ordinance. And even if we HAD met on 9/13 during Rosh Hashanah, we would've received the final version of the ordinance 1-2 hours prior to the start of our meeting, hardly timing that leads to thoughtful review & recommendations, especially since it still would've short circuited EOC's normal process of having staff & EOC Exec Committee discuss something more thoroughly prior to the full commission meeting.

2. And that's Ms. Vicky to you.
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Postby doppel » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:07 pm

Brenda Konkel wrote:
doppel wrote:How can ONE city commission not meet on a business day because of one religion's holiday and then complain about being left out of the loop when the grinder of government goes on without their input? Perhaps they think the world doesn't spin around the sun, it just spins around the eoc.


This was in an APM signed by Mayor Sue Bauman that committees were not supposed to meet on these days. And the clerk, accordingly, sends out a memo every year reminding committees not to meet on this day. This wasn't a decision of the EOC. They were just following the rules.



Thank you for the when and the how of these practices were implemented. Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is an APM? It sounds to me like you are saying that since it has been decreed by the ancients that all city committees(/commissions?)take off "these days" and that those who do, are merely "following orders" that all is well in swellsville. So be it. Amen.
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Postby VickySelkowe » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:26 pm

doppel wrote: Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is an APM?


APM = Administrative Procedure Memo.
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Postby Brenda Konkel » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:17 pm

doppel wrote:Thank you for the when and the how of these practices were implemented. Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is an APM? It sounds to me like you are saying that since it has been decreed by the ancients that all city committees(/commissions?)take off "these days" and that those who do, are merely "following orders" that all is well in swellsville. So be it. Amen.


APMs are our Administration Procedure Memorandums. The local version of an Executive Order. If the current Mayor doesn't like the APMs of former Mayor's they need to repeal them, otherwise, they are still in effect. Here they are:
http://www.cityofmadison.com/mayor/apmindex.htm

However, it turns out, that particular rule is not in an APM, here's all I can dig up:
just a memo from 4/30/1990 from Roberta Gassman and 5/12/92 & 10/14/93 memoes from Sally Miley to avoid scheduling on Jewish Holidays.

So, it looks like it was from the Soglin era.

Tho I swear, there was a Bauman APM at one point.

This is the note the clerk sent out:
DATE: September 20, 2006
TO: Mayor, Common Council President, Common Council and Departments
FROM: Helen Dietzler, Office of the City Clerk
SUBJECT: 2007 Meeting Schedules

Thanks to all departments, boards, commissions and committees for your cooperation in submitting
meeting notices and agendas in a timely manner. Your 2007 list of regularly scheduled meetings should be submitted to the Office of the City Clerk by Friday, November 17, 2006. Please use the
attached form.

FINAL SCHEDULE: Meetings must be reported by noon on Friday in order to appear on the Final Schedule. The Final Schedule will be posted to the Internet each Friday afternoon.

Agendas and minutes from committees, boards & commissions currently on the City Committee Name/Number List will be posted to the internet as I receive them. Using Outlook, agendas/minutes must be sent to the following address: CL Meetings. In order for your documents to appear online, you must publish them to the calendar-- (Legistar Users Only). For non-Legistar users, please send your documents to CL Meetings. Please refer to APM 3-1 for additional information.

To comply with the Open Meetings Law, agendas must be posted at least 24 hours before the start of a
meeting (Friday afternoon for all Monday meetings). You are responsible for submitting agendas and meeting notices in a timely manner.

Conference Room 103A may be reserved using the Outlook calendar. If you have further questions regarding room reservations, please contact me at 266-4601.

To facilitate a quorum, while allowing the maximum amount of public input, please avoid scheduling any meetings on the following days/evenings of 2007:

Monday, January 15, 2007 Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
Monday, April 2 at sunset through sunset on Wednesday, April 4, 2007 Passover
Monday, May 28, 2007 Memorial Day
Wednesday, July 4, 2007 Independence Day
Monday, September 3, 2007 Labor Day
Wednesday, September 12, 2007 at sunset through sunset on Rosh Hashanah
Friday, September 14, 2007 Rosh Hashanah
Friday, September 21, at sunset through sunset on Saturday, Yom Kippur
September 22, 2007 Yom Kippur
Thursday & Friday, November 23 & 23, 2007 Thanksgiving Holidays

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact Helen @ 266-4601. Thank you.
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Postby Brenda Konkel » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:19 am

I guess King Dave is an equal opportunity snubber.

In the case of the EOC, he didn't even want their opinion.

In the case of the EDC, Mark Bugher claims he just didn't listen.

Obviously, Mayor Dave doesn't have to follow every recommendation of every committee, but didn't Mayor Dave set himself up for this with all his talk during reorganization of the Department about the Economic Development Czar. Like I said, it was a train wreck you could see coming.
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Re:

Postby bdog » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:52 am

Daisy wrote:This is fascinating shit to watch from afar. So...Madison has an increasing crime problem, people are getting capped, neighborhoods tagged with gang grafitti, and...someone's upset that the CNA ordinance didn't languish in a COMMITTEE long enough?

Are you fucking KIDDING me? Are they handing out some sort of prize out there whereby you get a lifetime supply of Michael's Custard for being the most politically tone-deaf?

Some things never change.
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